Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 15:46     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This thread is making me ill.

At first i thought I was jealous, but even if I had the option to stay home and do nothing, I have way too much pride to do that.

I'd like to be a decent role model for my daughter--I want to teach her that her goal shouldn't be to marry "well," but it should be to fulfill her potential rather than just take the easy/lazy way out. Seriously, ladies, you stay home without kids to raise? Your husbands are going to get tired of that real fast. I know I'd kick my man to the curb if he decided to do that (and we didn't have 2.5 kids, which we do). Why do you as women get that luxury, but your husbands don't?


You have half a kid?


Yes.


Someone who has never been pregnant - wouldn't get that.


Umm, someone who's never had a brain wouldn't get that.


Am I missing my brain? Someone please explain to me this concept of telling people you have half a kid.


Seriously? You still don't understand?


NP to this discussion. I'm assuming the 2.5 kids poster is pregnant.
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 15:43     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This thread is making me ill.

At first i thought I was jealous, but even if I had the option to stay home and do nothing, I have way too much pride to do that.

I'd like to be a decent role model for my daughter--I want to teach her that her goal shouldn't be to marry "well," but it should be to fulfill her potential rather than just take the easy/lazy way out. Seriously, ladies, you stay home without kids to raise? Your husbands are going to get tired of that real fast. I know I'd kick my man to the curb if he decided to do that (and we didn't have 2.5 kids, which we do). Why do you as women get that luxury, but your husbands don't?


You have half a kid?


Yes.


Someone who has never been pregnant - wouldn't get that.


Umm, someone who's never had a brain wouldn't get that.


Am I missing my brain? Someone please explain to me this concept of telling people you have half a kid.


Seriously? You still don't understand?
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 15:42     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I accept that women should have the rights and ability to be SAHW. I support it 100% and will fight anyone who says they shouldn't. It is our choice as women to work, be SAHM or SAHW.

However, inside, I think SAHW (not SAHM) are substandard, vapid and a basic waste of space. You are nothing but a trophy for your husbands.

But, I will continue to verbally support your choice to do so.


I'm not a SAHW, but I know a few. Do you think they're a "vapid waste of space" just because they don't make money? The women I know that choose this lifestyle aren't "trophy wives". One has her own family money, worked through her 20's, and now sits on the board of a major charity that keeps her busy. Another also worked through her 20's and early 30's, married a man with substantial family money at 36, and now does a ton of charity work while also caring for her elderly mother.
I don't know any of these women other PP's have referred to that have never worked a day in their lives and sit around doing nothing all day.

So, I'm sure there are these mindless "trophy wives" out there, but I'd be careful to judge people so quickly. I hope that I raise my children to respect people of all kinds, and to never think they're superior.


Honey, these women are working (they just aren't earning money). I believe we are talking about women who don't work. If you can't understand the difference - well, you just aren't smart.
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 15:34     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:What about women who SAH as the moms of grown-up children? Are they also lazy, pointless human beings because they don't work and they are no longer active parents? At what age are a woman's children when she crosses the line between SAHM and SAHW? 10? 15? 18? 25?


But the RAISED their children and are now in retirement. There IS a difference between them and women who neither work nor raise a family.
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 14:47     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
What about women who SAH as the moms of grown-up children? Are they also lazy, pointless human beings because they don't work and they are no longer active parents? At what age are a woman's children when she crosses the line between SAHM and SAHW? 10? 15? 18? 25?
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 13:57     Subject: women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Anti-feminist pp to hate pp: I concede you may be right that I am being naive. I disagree, but it's a valid criticism. The raw recentness of the struggle is often forgotten. I think it should be taught with a whole lot more emphasis throughout our history education. That said, you are just wrong about the bad apple comparison. Guess what, there's a lot of dumb, lazy and worthless people of every stripe out there. I think the further we can get from generalizing entire groups based on these individuals the better we will be. That is why I am choosing to focus on eradicating sexism (racism, etc) as opposed to enforcing some kind of requirement on all women.

For example, I am a physicist. You can bet I experienced a whole lot of sexism throughout my education. It sucked and I strive every day to improve the situation for those that come after me. However, lots of women suck at physics. So do lots of men. Other people sucking at physics doesn't preclude someone being open to the possibility that I am good at it. This openness is what breaks down barriers, not me getting pissed cause other women can't do it. I hope you understand my point. I am actually quite enjoying this exchange.


As an aside, thank you for being a physicist. My DD loves science and is always very excited to meet female scientists.

That's excellent. Help her not to get discouraged when it gets hard. It's hard for everyone! And don't take every wrong answer to be an indictment of herself or all females. That is paralyzing.



NP here, and I am finding this conversation fascinating! I am all for being open and breaking down barriers and supporting people (not just women) who have trouble finding a job they love or something they are particularly good at. But don't you think there is a sense of entitlement with women who choose to stay home (wives not moms!) Men/ Husbands aren't given that luxury, instead they are expected to provide it and somehow we are still supposed to be treated as equals?

I studied film and ran into issues being a women in that field. I always felt it is because of women who expect to not work, they unfortunately represent all of us and make us look bad like we are all just looking for a man to save us from the working world. I get it, sometimes work is hard, reading and doing other things that most people do on weekends sounds lovely to everyone (men and women) so how come these special princess get to do it? And then when hard working women get worked up about it, we are all just jealous haters

I get that I am lucky enough to have something that I am passionate about and want to do for the rest of my life, I would never be satisfied staying home on permanent vacation. But I understand not everyone has that luxury, it doesn't mean people can find the thing they are good at (like start your own business, teach, whatever!) I am also someone who had a stay at home dad and my mother was and is still the head of the household so I really can't help but see staying at home without kids as just giving up, not a real choice. And no, I do not hate you but please don't act like you are doing us women any favors. I know the actions of posters on this board have not contributed directly to the inequality and borderline harassment I have encountered but you are adding fuel to the already burning fire, not by staying home but feeling entitled to stay home and not work- somehow being born a women gives you that right?
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 12:44     Subject: women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Anti-feminist pp to hate pp: I concede you may be right that I am being naive. I disagree, but it's a valid criticism. The raw recentness of the struggle is often forgotten. I think it should be taught with a whole lot more emphasis throughout our history education. That said, you are just wrong about the bad apple comparison. Guess what, there's a lot of dumb, lazy and worthless people of every stripe out there. I think the further we can get from generalizing entire groups based on these individuals the better we will be. That is why I am choosing to focus on eradicating sexism (racism, etc) as opposed to enforcing some kind of requirement on all women.

For example, I am a physicist. You can bet I experienced a whole lot of sexism throughout my education. It sucked and I strive every day to improve the situation for those that come after me. However, lots of women suck at physics. So do lots of men. Other people sucking at physics doesn't preclude someone being open to the possibility that I am good at it. This openness is what breaks down barriers, not me getting pissed cause other women can't do it. I hope you understand my point. I am actually quite enjoying this exchange.


As an aside, thank you for being a physicist. My DD loves science and is always very excited to meet female scientists.

That's excellent. Help her not to get discouraged when it gets hard. It's hard for everyone! And don't take every wrong answer to be an indictment of herself or all females. That is paralyzing.
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 12:34     Subject: women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:Anti-feminist pp to hate pp: I concede you may be right that I am being naive. I disagree, but it's a valid criticism. The raw recentness of the struggle is often forgotten. I think it should be taught with a whole lot more emphasis throughout our history education. That said, you are just wrong about the bad apple comparison. Guess what, there's a lot of dumb, lazy and worthless people of every stripe out there. I think the further we can get from generalizing entire groups based on these individuals the better we will be. That is why I am choosing to focus on eradicating sexism (racism, etc) as opposed to enforcing some kind of requirement on all women.

For example, I am a physicist. You can bet I experienced a whole lot of sexism throughout my education. It sucked and I strive every day to improve the situation for those that come after me. However, lots of women suck at physics. So do lots of men. Other people sucking at physics doesn't preclude someone being open to the possibility that I am good at it. This openness is what breaks down barriers, not me getting pissed cause other women can't do it. I hope you understand my point. I am actually quite enjoying this exchange.


As an aside, thank you for being a physicist. My DD loves science and is always very excited to meet female scientists.
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 12:33     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:I have been both a stay at home wife and a full-time working wife (no kids). I'm currently working full-time and have been for 1.5 years. Previously before that, I did the stay at home wife thing a few times, sometimes while job searching for an extended period of time (like 9 months), other times when I was in-between jobs and figuring out a new career path. I often wondered whether to make the stay at home wife gig my career.

My DH works 80 hour weeks and we don't need my salary. DH didn't care whether I worked or not. I don't especially enjoy working, because I find it stressful and don't like working at an office from 9 to 5 and having to stay there until close of business even after all my work was done. I have a JD and a master's degree (currently using the master's) and with the exception of my current full-time job, I have hated every job I've ever had. I never felt like I was using my talents in any of my previous jobs, and felt drained and exhausted when coming home.

As a contrast, I enjoyed my times as a stay at home wife for the most part. I loved being able to spend my time any way I wanted and pursuing a variety of intellectual and personal interests. I also loved that my to-do list got done every day, whereas now I have to cram in all my chores and errands on the weekends which limits our fun time. However, stay at home was isolating, since I felt lonely at home a lot. But I never felt bored at home or like I didn't have enough to do. There is tons to do at home. I really don't get why people think it's boring to stay at home. I'm a lot more bored working full-time! I don't feel that I'm being especially challenged by my job but I do enjoy the accomplishment of a job well done, however, I felt that way staying at home too, when I completed a household project.

What bothered me the most about staying home was not having my own salary and having to ask DH for money. I never bought myself any extras because I felt like I didn't deserve it since I didn't have a salary. The thing that bugs me most about working is having to sit in the office from 9 to 5 even though I get most of my work done in the first two hours. I could be spending the rest of that time taking care of my personal chores and errands. I also worry a lot about the office environment in terms of sick building syndrome.

Overall, I think I'm slightly happier working full-time than I was as a stay at home wife, though I think the best of both worlds would be working part-time. I also think I'm a much more boring person now that I'm working full-time. I don't have the time or energy to read, I don't have time to pursue my hobbies, and I would love to take a class in something but don't really have the time or energy.


It sounds like you've had awful, unchallenging jobs. If you can get your job done in two hours either you are way overqualified, or really non committed.
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 12:25     Subject: women who don't work or raise kids
Anti-feminist pp to hate pp: I concede you may be right that I am being naive. I disagree, but it's a valid criticism. The raw recentness of the struggle is often forgotten. I think it should be taught with a whole lot more emphasis throughout our history education. That said, you are just wrong about the bad apple comparison. Guess what, there's a lot of dumb, lazy and worthless people of every stripe out there. I think the further we can get from generalizing entire groups based on these individuals the better we will be. That is why I am choosing to focus on eradicating sexism (racism, etc) as opposed to enforcing some kind of requirement on all women.

For example, I am a physicist. You can bet I experienced a whole lot of sexism throughout my education. It sucked and I strive every day to improve the situation for those that come after me. However, lots of women suck at physics. So do lots of men. Other people sucking at physics doesn't preclude someone being open to the possibility that I am good at it. This openness is what breaks down barriers, not me getting pissed cause other women can't do it. I hope you understand my point. I am actually quite enjoying this exchange.
Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 11:05     Subject: women who don't work or raise kids
NP here. Not that it's my business, but I don't really care so much if someone doesn't want to work if the husband is ok with that. What irks the HELL out of me is people who say that there "job" is to be a SAHW. No, honey, you're just not employed. The fact that you are doing that as a married person vs. a single person doesn't not give you a job title.

Anonymous
Post 08/09/2012 10:42     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Yeah, you thought outside the box alright. Yup.

Now, what did your friends say when you told them you were quitting your job because you were married now, a la Charlotte/SATC? I'm genuinely curious. Did you proudly announce your choice to be this kind of pioneer?

You're jumping to conclusions about things. I didn't quit my job because I got married. The company I was working for shut down and I decided not to look for another job right away. I'm not a trophy wife, not outwardly attractive, and I have no family money. My husband is not a trophy husband (whatever the male term for that is). He makes $70,000/year. And we have been reasonably living on that. We just live simply. And we are both happy. We don't have the power imbalance that often happens in arrangements such as ours.

As to what my friends thought about this decision? When it came up in conversation, I told them, but they didn't take it upon themselves to approve or disapprove. They have this kooky idea that people should make their own decisions in life to achieve their own goals, not the goals of the feminist community, not the goals of chauvinist men, not the goals of an ethnic group or any other kind of group. Some of them make life decisions I wouldn't make, decisions I think are very unwise. But it's their life. My close group of friends has a huge respect for others, and we don't expect everyone else to be just like us. We have different kinds of lifestyles, and can see the advantages of all of them. Are there other people in my life who disapprove? Most likely, but they're not in charge of me, so they can think whatever they want.

The thing that's foreign to me in reading this thread is the emphasis on what other people think. Trophy wives appear to have inordinate emphasis on how they appear to others. But so do women who think I need to work because it will cause men to think certain things about women. In my opinion, both of these focus too much on others' perceptions of them (and apparently others' perceptions of me).
Anonymous
Post 08/08/2012 21:04     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
I have been both a stay at home wife and a full-time working wife (no kids). I'm currently working full-time and have been for 1.5 years. Previously before that, I did the stay at home wife thing a few times, sometimes while job searching for an extended period of time (like 9 months), other times when I was in-between jobs and figuring out a new career path. I often wondered whether to make the stay at home wife gig my career.

My DH works 80 hour weeks and we don't need my salary. DH didn't care whether I worked or not. I don't especially enjoy working, because I find it stressful and don't like working at an office from 9 to 5 and having to stay there until close of business even after all my work was done. I have a JD and a master's degree (currently using the master's) and with the exception of my current full-time job, I have hated every job I've ever had. I never felt like I was using my talents in any of my previous jobs, and felt drained and exhausted when coming home.

As a contrast, I enjoyed my times as a stay at home wife for the most part. I loved being able to spend my time any way I wanted and pursuing a variety of intellectual and personal interests. I also loved that my to-do list got done every day, whereas now I have to cram in all my chores and errands on the weekends which limits our fun time. However, stay at home was isolating, since I felt lonely at home a lot. But I never felt bored at home or like I didn't have enough to do. There is tons to do at home. I really don't get why people think it's boring to stay at home. I'm a lot more bored working full-time! I don't feel that I'm being especially challenged by my job but I do enjoy the accomplishment of a job well done, however, I felt that way staying at home too, when I completed a household project.

What bothered me the most about staying home was not having my own salary and having to ask DH for money. I never bought myself any extras because I felt like I didn't deserve it since I didn't have a salary. The thing that bugs me most about working is having to sit in the office from 9 to 5 even though I get most of my work done in the first two hours. I could be spending the rest of that time taking care of my personal chores and errands. I also worry a lot about the office environment in terms of sick building syndrome.

Overall, I think I'm slightly happier working full-time than I was as a stay at home wife, though I think the best of both worlds would be working part-time. I also think I'm a much more boring person now that I'm working full-time. I don't have the time or energy to read, I don't have time to pursue my hobbies, and I would love to take a class in something but don't really have the time or energy.
Anonymous
Post 08/08/2012 20:28     Subject: women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Dear God, PP, please start taking your meds.


Meds or not, she makes perfect sense. Albeit hate is a strong word, so maybe she should substitute it for disgust.


I am the "hate" poster, and you are right; hate was too strong a word. Disgust is better. (And I don't need meds because I am able to articulate full and complete thoughts, whether they offend some of the over-medicated wallflowers here or not.)

To the posters who think I am anti-feminist, it strikes me as awfully naive to think that somehow we are so far removed from a time when women were shut out of everything that mattered that we couldn't possibly go back to that place, even as silly college girls around us opt for the "choice" to collect their MRS degrees and sit on their asses at home eating bon bons (or starving themselves to maintain their aesthetic appeal - who knows?). Shame on you for buying into the crap that is "it's a choice not to participate in the world" BS that's been fed to you by The Real Housewives of Wherever.

And to the pp that is allowing me to blame you for my lack of job, thanks, but I think you need to skip tomorrow's shopping trip to Saks and get back to school for a reading comprehension check - the fact that I rail against the likes of you suggests that I am, indeed, gainfully employed. Nevertheless, I still resent you for making all of us look bad.

To the women who suggest that it's "not fair" that one bad apple makes the rest of us look bad, I agree - all non-majorities deal with this every day. Nevertheless, it's a fact of life. And that's why I hate - no, I'm sorry - am "disgusted" - by you and your kind.
Anonymous
Post 08/08/2012 17:53     Subject: Re:women who don't work or raise kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I'm a SAH wife, and I never ask my husband for money. We have always had joint bank accounts and both will discuss if either of us wants to make a large purchase. This is no difference with that between the times I'm working and the times I'm not. I don't look at it as his money because having a SAHW allows him to be a better worker. He doesn't worry about dry-cleaning, laundry, dinner, housecleaning. All he has to do is go to work. He never has to leave early to pick up his car at the shop. He used to get phone calls from his mom during work, but now she can call me if she needs something. We live on less money, but we are very happy with this arrangement. Now, Saturdays involve just spending time together, not running errands when the stores are the most crowded. I don't worry about what will happen if he runs off. I supported myself before, and I would be able to again. However, this is not likely to happen because we have built our marriage in a way that we are both dependent on each other. It's probably not for everyone, but I love taking care of my husband, and he loves taking care of me.

Of course, there are plenty of people online and in real life judging me for this. Do I care? Nope.


He's not bored with you?


If anything coming home and talking/complaining about work makes me boring to my husband.

Not the pp but how does this question even make sense?


Not the PP either, and I'm a WOHM to boot, but I feel I would be a lot more interesting if I were able to pursue more interests outside of work, if only I had more time. I'd love more time to read, maybe take a class or two, try some new hobbies, etc. A person like this could potentially be a must more interesting conversationalist than a working drone. You know the expression: all work and no play makes jack a dull boy?