Anonymous wrote:You aren't trolling, but not reading very well.

DC had NNAT above 132, all 4s, GBRS of 11 (1 below 12), 130 and 132 on the parts that actually identify giftedness on the WISC and is advanced reading.

Reality is that AAP is probably the best fit, but with the 16% processing speed we are not going to appeal this year. I completely trust Dr. Dahlgren and her expertise in this matter. We can wait a year; not a big deal.

My bad, and good call

You aren't trolling, but not reading very well.

DC had NNAT above 132, all 4s, GBRS of 11 (1 below 12), 130 and 132 on the parts that actually identify giftedness on the WISC and is advanced reading.

Reality is that AAP is probably the best fit, but with the 16% processing speed we are not going to appeal this year. I completely trust Dr. Dahlgren and her expertise in this matter. We can wait a year; not a big deal.

Not try to be a troll here, but reality is, NNAT cutoff is 132, FxAT cutoff is 95%, average GBRS for AAP acceptance is 12, WISC 130 to be a good score for success appeal. If DC met none of the above, even somehow DC got into AAP, DC might suffer.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks.. More info...All 4s on report card, GBRS 11, high NNAT, lowish Cogat, GBRS 11, advanced reading. Dr. Dahlgren suggested waiting a year to allow time to address the low processing score with a full psych evaluation, and then retake cogat, hopefully a higher GBRS, and then reapply next year.

Wow, it is a tough call. It seems like your DC is doing great now and would be able to handle the AAP curriculum. I don't know how much a WISC submitted now would follow your DC in the future. It would remain in the school's files but if appeal this year is not successful would the screening committee next year see a completely fresh screening file, or would materials submitted from the previous year still be visible to them? Would knowing the 16% WISC processing score cause next year's school committee to assign a lower GBRS? Maybe someone knowledgeable on these issues will chime in. Not to second guess Dr. Dahlgren who has so much expertise and saw the most complete picture of your DC. I see that overall eligibility standards were really high this year. Lots of great students seem to have been found ineligible, at least at our school. So general ed should have an academically stronger peer group than last year.

Thanks.. More info...All 4s on report card, GBRS 11, high NNAT, lowish Cogat, GBRS 11, advanced reading. Dr. Dahlgren suggested waiting a year to allow time to address the low processing score with a full psych evaluation, and then retake cogat, hopefully a higher GBRS, and then reapply next year.

Anonymous wrote:Here are the numbers for the WISC IV. Based upon Dr. feedback, we are not going to appeal. Processing speed is too low. Great disparity between DC actual intelligence (the 1st two) and the processing and working memory. Of course, we know that DC is exceptionally bright; talks about evolution, continental splits, weather patterns, taxes and other advanced topics on a daily basis. We believe that AAP would be the most appropriate environment for DC given abilities; however, understand that the scores may in some way be held against DC on any future appeal. It is frustrating deciding whom to trust with all of this. We don't want to make a wrong move and feel that FCPS already has us in check mate. Putting our faith in the Dr. and following her advice. I would like to appeal, but won't because of the aforementioned.

VC - 132
PO - 130
WM - 97
Processing - 85
Full Scale - 119

Just to give some numbers for perspective, our DC had VCI and PRI very similar to your DC's (one was a little higher, the other was a little lower), but processing was in the low 40 percentiles, Average. Even this processing speed was low enough that Dr. Dahlgren raised the possibility of ADHD. So I would think that 16% for processing would be unusually low, and maybe the degree of the processing issue was the basis of Dr. Dahlgren's recommendation. In our case Dr. Dahlgren recommended pursuing AAP placement. It is true that VCI and PRI are more strongly considered than working memory and processing speed in determinations of "giftedness," but I think this is more in terms of gifted children having high VCI and PRI but working memory and processing speed at only average levels. See article at link below for an idea of typical "gifted" subscores:

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/PDF_files/NewWISC.pdf

How is your DC doing in school so far? Did Dr. Dahlgren give an idea what the reason could have been for the initial denial? If NNAT and FxAT were very strong, not sure that test scores are the issue and that WISC would make a big difference. If the report card was weak, showing some signs of struggle even in general ed, and GBRS was low, the low processing could possibly be held more against your DC. On the other hand if GBRS was stellar, all 4s on report card, currently receiving advanced instruction in one or more areas, and the only problem was a low FxAT, for example, then it might seem more like the high WISC VCI and PRI could be helpful. I would think that Dr. Dahlgren took all the various factors into account in making her recommendation, a more informed one than anyone could make on this board. If you wait one more year and address the processing issue, retaking CogAT as suggested or even a new WISC, the worst that could happen might be a year's delay in starting the program. It seems that Dr. Dahlgren sees a greater risk to letting the 16% processing speed figure be known to FCPS at this time. I don't know at all how such a number would be regarded, but again it may need to be viewed in the context of all the other factors.

I really don't what is best...

I would follow the dr. advice as you are paying for his/her expertise. At the center orientation there were lots of fourth graders. I was surprised. Waiting a year and figuring out any issues around the discrepancy sounds like the best thing to do for DC. YOU know what's best.

Anonymous wrote:Here are the numbers for the WISC IV. Based upon Dr. feedback, we are not going to appeal. Processing speed is too low. Great disparity between DC actual intelligence (the 1st two) and the processing and working memory. Of course, we know that DC is exceptionally bright; talks about evolution, continental splits, weather patterns, taxes and other advanced topics on a daily basis. We believe that AAP would be the most appropriate environment for DC given abilities; however, understand that the scores may in some way be held against DC on any future appeal. It is frustrating deciding whom to trust with all of this. We don't want to make a wrong move and feel that FCPS already has us in check mate. Putting our faith in the Dr. and following her advice. I would like to appeal, but won't because of the aforementioned.

VC - 132
PO - 130
WM - 97
Processing - 85
Full Scale - 119

How about GAI? Did they calculate the GAI in your case? There are published articles that talk about the GAI being a great predictor of giftedness and an optimum way to select kids for advanced academics programs. In our case, verbal and perceptual scores were stellar, working memory was fine, but processing speed was low. The total score we were provided on the WISC report was the GAI (in the 140's) even though FISQ was still respectable (in the mid-120's), as the most appropriate metric to reflect DC's abilities and potential. DC's GAI-based WISC clearly puts DC very high in percentiles and subscores so this, together with the other test scores (NNAT, FxAT), should be enough to reassure the committee that indeed DC belongs in AAP, despite an low/average GBRS.

Are you saying that the committee will ignore this result because of the possibility that an obviously bright kid could have lost interest in simple tasks after a couple of hours of testing or because they didn't think they were timed when they were working on this section? If the committee is so short-sighted, then they deserve every lawsuit that may be coming their way this year. In view of everything they have tried over the years in order to select the most suitable kids for the program, ignoring such indicators of intellectual ability seems to me totally dumb, to say the least.

Here are the numbers for the WISC IV. Based upon Dr. feedback, we are not going to appeal. Processing speed is too low. Great disparity between DC actual intelligence (the 1st two) and the processing and working memory. Of course, we know that DC is exceptionally bright; talks about evolution, continental splits, weather patterns, taxes and other advanced topics on a daily basis. We believe that AAP would be the most appropriate environment for DC given abilities; however, understand that the scores may in some way be held against DC on any future appeal. It is frustrating deciding whom to trust with all of this. We don't want to make a wrong move and feel that FCPS already has us in check mate. Putting our faith in the Dr. and following her advice. I would like to appeal, but won't because of the aforementioned.

VC - 132
PO - 130
WM - 97
Processing - 85
Full Scale - 119

yes, i get confused when people use the %percentiles. the numbers themselves make it an easier comparison.

For instance the above perdentiles of 42% and 16%. I am thinking those numbers are below 100 (I am guessing that 100 is the 50% percentile).

If that is so and the numbers are below 100 then the Dr.s advice not to appeal makes sense... i think.

Yes, what were the numbers? I think there is some point to being realistic here. Yes, processing speed doesn't signify alone gifted behavior, but past parents have suggested that high WISCs were necessary to overcome on appeal. The lowest FSIQ I saw was about 128, but mostly in the 130s and up.

what is a 90% FSIQ? What FSIQ is that?

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10678.aspx

Tips for Parents: Neuropsychological Testing Q&A
Crawford, M.
Davidson Institute for Talent Development
2010

This Tips for Parents article is from a seminar hosted by Dr. Melanie Crawford, who provides a Q&A about many different topics of neuropsychological testing.

The goal for this seminar was to increase parents’ knowledge neuropsychological testing as well as discuss how test results can be helpful in better understanding their children. Many questions were asked about intellectual assessment (IQ testing), achievement testing (academic assessments), as well as other measures of neuropsychological functioning (e.g., executive functioning, visuospatial skills, phonological processing). Below are abbreviated answers to some of the questions answered during the seminar.

What do the four indices of the Wechler Intelligence Scale for Children - Fourth Edition (WISC-IV) measure?

The Verbal Comprehension Index of the WISC-IV measures verbal reasoning abilities and the Perceptual Reasoning Index measures non-verbal and spatial reasoning skills. These two indices are the most important when considering a child’s intellectual ability. Working memory involves holding information in memory, performing some operation on it, and producing a result (e.g., solving arithmetic problems in your head). Tests within the Processing Speed Index require rapid visual scanning and coordination of simple visual information as well as sustained concentration and attention to detail.

What does it mean when a child scores within the gifted range on the Verbal Comprehension and Perceptual Reasoning Indices and shows much lower scores on the Working Memory and Processing Speed Indices of the WISC-IV?

It is common for gifted children to show significantly lower scores on the Processing Speed and Working Memory Indices of the WISC-IV, when compared to their performance on the Verbal Comprehension and Perceptual Reasoning Indices. However, very large discrepancies can sometimes be indicative of problems with attention or something else that is getting in the way of a child being able to focus or process and respond to information quickly (i.e., anxiety, depression, visuomotor coordination, perfectionism). When this is the case, a comprehensive neuropsychological evaluation would be required to help tease this apart.

Anonymous wrote:to follow up...WISC IV...Told not to appeal with these scores.

Verbal 98%tile - Very Superior
Perceptual 97%tile - Superior
Working memory 42%tile - Average
Processing - 16%tile - Low Average
FSIQ - 90%tile - high Average

I am not sure you are getting good advice. From what I understand, such disparity between Verbal/Perceptual and Processing is common among very bright kids. The psychologist told us that either some children did not understand they were being timed in these questions or they totally lost interest, since these are very simple, rather boring, pen-and-paper questions. Either way, there is a very reasonable explanation as to why a very bright kid might not do well in this category. There is no scientific evidence that a higher score in processing speed would indicate a gifted child, but there is a lot of work that suggests that very high verbal and perceptual indices do indeed identify gifted students. Thus, I am very confused by your psychologist's suggestions...