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Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

People…let us not fool ourselves that any of these clubs, big or small, make a big difference in athletic recruiting. Look at most of the D1 rosters and they are filled with players from the UK, Netherlands, and Canada. The big clubs might give your DD an edge but overall will not have much of an impact for athletic recruiting if that is your goal.

Another completely uninformed opionion. Look at the final four, the vast majority of player were US players. That is fact. And these are the club teams they primarily came from: West Chester Eagles (who we all know of as WC), Spirit of USA, Freedom, AGH, Texas Pride. Then a spattering from Windy City, and some other PA teams. No Warhawks, no Metro (well, one player at UVA, who didn't get in any games went from Metro to Freedom), no NL, definintely no Nova Extreme or Husel. I don't know why you all think playing for a top 5 club team doesn't matter for recruiting when it's actually pretty much all that matters.

I’m sorry your DD didn’t get recruited into a top 4 D1 school. There are plenty of other good D1 options and D3 (NESCAC, ODAC, etc.) schools that give great financial/merit aid to their student athletes. Don’t give up - if your DD’s dream is to play college field hockey, it is an attainable goal. Not everybody can get recruited to play at UNC, Duke, Maryland, Louisville, etc.

Was this meant to respond to a different poster? I was correcting the poster that in fact club FH does matter for recruiting and that top US clubs have many many more players playing for D1 programs than Netherlands and UK (and definitely more than Canada. Canada?). My DD was recruited and plays D1 at a top school and played for one of the clubs described in this thread frequently.

PP may be on to something. Look at the Syracuse roster which is one of the best D1 programs and a dream school for my DD. Half the team is European. But granted no Canadians.

https://cuse.com/sports/field-hockey/roster

Lord. No one is seriously disputing that many D1 programs are in large part made up of foreign players. (This is starting to be the case at the other levels too).

The question is can players not on the top clubs be recruited to these schools also? The answer is yes, though being on a top club (& having a coach/Director actually promote you rather than threaten you into doing what you’re told without question) helps immensely.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

People…let us not fool ourselves that any of these clubs, big or small, make a big difference in athletic recruiting. Look at most of the D1 rosters and they are filled with players from the UK, Netherlands, and Canada. The big clubs might give your DD an edge but overall will not have much of an impact for athletic recruiting if that is your goal.

Another completely uninformed opionion. Look at the final four, the vast majority of player were US players. That is fact. And these are the club teams they primarily came from: West Chester Eagles (who we all know of as WC), Spirit of USA, Freedom, AGH, Texas Pride. Then a spattering from Windy City, and some other PA teams. No Warhawks, no Metro (well, one player at UVA, who didn't get in any games went from Metro to Freedom), no NL, definintely no Nova Extreme or Husel. I don't know why you all think playing for a top 5 club team doesn't matter for recruiting when it's actually pretty much all that matters.

I’m sorry your DD didn’t get recruited into a top 4 D1 school. There are plenty of other good D1 options and D3 (NESCAC, ODAC, etc.) schools that give great financial/merit aid to their student athletes. Don’t give up - if your DD’s dream is to play college field hockey, it is an attainable goal. Not everybody can get recruited to play at UNC, Duke, Maryland, Louisville, etc.

Was this meant to respond to a different poster? I was correcting the poster that in fact club FH does matter for recruiting and that top US clubs have many many more players playing for D1 programs than Netherlands and UK (and definitely more than Canada. Canada?). My DD was recruited and plays D1 at a top school and played for one of the clubs described in this thread frequently.

PP may be on to something. Look at the Syracuse roster which is one of the best D1 programs and a dream school for my DD. Half the team is European. But granted no Canadians.

https://cuse.com/sports/field-hockey/roster

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

People…let us not fool ourselves that any of these clubs, big or small, make a big difference in athletic recruiting. Look at most of the D1 rosters and they are filled with players from the UK, Netherlands, and Canada. The big clubs might give your DD an edge but overall will not have much of an impact for athletic recruiting if that is your goal.

Another completely uninformed opionion. Look at the final four, the vast majority of player were US players. That is fact. And these are the club teams they primarily came from: West Chester Eagles (who we all know of as WC), Spirit of USA, Freedom, AGH, Texas Pride. Then a spattering from Windy City, and some other PA teams. No Warhawks, no Metro (well, one player at UVA, who didn't get in any games went from Metro to Freedom), no NL, definintely no Nova Extreme or Husel. I don't know why you all think playing for a top 5 club team doesn't matter for recruiting when it's actually pretty much all that matters.

I’m sorry your DD didn’t get recruited into a top 4 D1 school. There are plenty of other good D1 options and D3 (NESCAC, ODAC, etc.) schools that give great financial/merit aid to their student athletes. Don’t give up - if your DD’s dream is to play college field hockey, it is an attainable goal. Not everybody can get recruited to play at UNC, Duke, Maryland, Louisville, etc.

Was this meant to respond to a different poster? I was correcting the poster that in fact club FH does matter for recruiting and that top US clubs have many many more players playing for D1 programs than Netherlands and UK (and definitely more than Canada. Canada?). My DD was recruited and plays D1 at a top school and played for one of the clubs described in this thread frequently.

Yes, Canada. The proof is in the pudding. Take a look at the rosters of multiple D1 programs… not just the school your DD attended.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

People…let us not fool ourselves that any of these clubs, big or small, make a big difference in athletic recruiting. Look at most of the D1 rosters and they are filled with players from the UK, Netherlands, and Canada. The big clubs might give your DD an edge but overall will not have much of an impact for athletic recruiting if that is your goal.

Another completely uninformed opionion. Look at the final four, the vast majority of player were US players. That is fact. And these are the club teams they primarily came from: West Chester Eagles (who we all know of as WC), Spirit of USA, Freedom, AGH, Texas Pride. Then a spattering from Windy City, and some other PA teams. No Warhawks, no Metro (well, one player at UVA, who didn't get in any games went from Metro to Freedom), no NL, definintely no Nova Extreme or Husel. I don't know why you all think playing for a top 5 club team doesn't matter for recruiting when it's actually pretty much all that matters.

I’m sorry your DD didn’t get recruited into a top 4 D1 school. There are plenty of other good D1 options and D3 (NESCAC, ODAC, etc.) schools that give great financial/merit aid to their student athletes. Don’t give up - if your DD’s dream is to play college field hockey, it is an attainable goal. Not everybody can get recruited to play at UNC, Duke, Maryland, Louisville, etc.

Was this meant to respond to a different poster? I was correcting the poster that in fact club FH does matter for recruiting and that top US clubs have many many more players playing for D1 programs than Netherlands and UK (and definitely more than Canada. Canada?). My DD was recruited and plays D1 at a top school and played for one of the clubs described in this thread frequently.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

People…let us not fool ourselves that any of these clubs, big or small, make a big difference in athletic recruiting. Look at most of the D1 rosters and they are filled with players from the UK, Netherlands, and Canada. The big clubs might give your DD an edge but overall will not have much of an impact for athletic recruiting if that is your goal.

Another completely uninformed opionion. Look at the final four, the vast majority of player were US players. That is fact. And these are the club teams they primarily came from: West Chester Eagles (who we all know of as WC), Spirit of USA, Freedom, AGH, Texas Pride. Then a spattering from Windy City, and some other PA teams. No Warhawks, no Metro (well, one player at UVA, who didn't get in any games went from Metro to Freedom), no NL, definintely no Nova Extreme or Husel. I don't know why you all think playing for a top 5 club team doesn't matter for recruiting when it's actually pretty much all that matters.

I’m sorry your DD didn’t get recruited into a top 4 D1 school. There are plenty of other good D1 options and D3 (NESCAC, ODAC, etc.) schools that give great financial/merit aid to their student athletes. Don’t give up - if your DD’s dream is to play college field hockey, it is an attainable goal. Not everybody can get recruited to play at UNC, Duke, Maryland, Louisville, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

People…let us not fool ourselves that any of these clubs, big or small, make a big difference in athletic recruiting. Look at most of the D1 rosters and they are filled with players from the UK, Netherlands, and Canada. The big clubs might give your DD an edge but overall will not have much of an impact for athletic recruiting if that is your goal.

Another completely uninformed opionion. Look at the final four, the vast majority of player were US players. That is fact. And these are the club teams they primarily came from: West Chester Eagles (who we all know of as WC), Spirit of USA, Freedom, AGH, Texas Pride. Then a spattering from Windy City, and some other PA teams. No Warhawks, no Metro (well, one player at UVA, who didn't get in any games went from Metro to Freedom), no NL, definintely no Nova Extreme or Husel. I don't know why you all think playing for a top 5 club team doesn't matter for recruiting when it's actually pretty much all that matters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

People…let us not fool ourselves that any of these clubs, big or small, make a big difference in athletic recruiting. Look at most of the D1 rosters and they are filled with players from the UK, Netherlands, and Canada. The big clubs might give your DD an edge but overall will not have much of an impact for athletic recruiting if that is your goal.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

^^^^ This comment is so funny and arrogant.

Its true. In this area, Freedom and Warhawks play in the top pools and they are among the top clubs. They may also have teams in lower pools, but there are some clubs that only play in the lower pools and they are no where near as good as Freedom and Warhawks. Or you'll see a lower level clubs A team play against Freedom and Warhawks B or C teams.

Even within a club you may have one age group play in top pools meaning that age group is the strongest age group for the club. A different age group may play in lower pools and that means at that age group they are not as strong.

This doesn't mean a club won't have high caliber players at various age groups, but they don't have a whole team able to play in the tops pools.

And no, my daughter doesn't play for Freedom or Warhawks, but I recognize the better clubs have a team playing in the harder/top pools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

^^^^ This comment is so funny and arrogant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Meh. BFD. You play for the big clubs in the high tiers if you want to play in college. People commute for hours to play with WC and the like. The don’t do that for fun.

But you don’t need that to play in college. Though it makes it easier.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

I’m not talking about college. I’m talking about what the pool says about the level of the club. Lower pools equal lower level clubs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So far it sounds like the only drama free clubs in the DC/Northern VA area are the Hammers, the Mustangs and Nova Extreme. Definitely don’t want my daughter to play for some crazy/mean coach. She’s too young for that type of behavior.

Too many administrative problems with Mustangs, but skilled coaches. Hammers used to be a hot mess and yes, a coach that’s mean. Not necessarily to her players but to players from other clubs or high schools, so not a good role model. Coaching is OK. Guess that leaves Nova extreme, which I don’t know much about.

I will say, I don’t think Wolves, NL, Alpha, KOA, and whoever else I’m missing, should be grouped with Metro and Husel. DD played for one of the later two and the stories, treatment, behavior are just not the same. People who complain about Wolves/NL probably have little experience with the other two and don’t know how bad it can be.

I agree with this statement, the above have normal club politics with disagreements on team placements/ playing time. The others are abusive to the girls with statements and actively try to ruin them future prospects.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

It is not that simple. If you are shooting for UNC, Penn State, etc. pool -MAY- matter. Especially if you don't have supportive coaches/teams. But, if you're good, and even if not in a top pool with a top team, you can still go to a top D1. ESPECIALLY if you have gone far at Nexus. Or if you are a favored player who is promoted by the club. This has happened a few times at our club over the last couple of years (and no, I'm not saying which but it is one of the ones not recommended here).

Otherwise, our experience is that yes, winning is winning.

Anonymous wrote:According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.

The pool matters if you want your kid to be on a better team. If you just want your kid to play and be happy it doesn’t.

According to nova extreme’s Instagram, they won their pools at Winter Escape (January) and Shooting Star College Connection Showcase (April) plus some recent indoor tournaments. So before the Freedom/NL crowd start complaining about pool placement, winning is winning. And a winning club usually means good coaching and good players.