Anonymous wrote:I am not. Exactly what percentage of Russians and South Koreans and Poles and Chinese are taking Algebra in 6th and 7th grade? I doubt that the number is as high as you all think. The elite and people who can afford the tutoring and prep are pushing STEM in many countries. This is not a wide spread thing and if you think that it is, I have a bridge to sell you for a low, low price.

NP but I completely agree. My DH grew up in Germany. Their education system there is wonderful *for some students.* Somewhere around 4th grade you get tracked to either go on to gymnasium and complete a rigorous educational path, or tracked to go to either vocational school or work in a factory. It's very hard to move from one track to another and the wealthier families with college educated parents tend to be the ones whose kids are on the advanced track. They may take Algebra earlier but it is far from the vast majority of students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually teach a college STEM subject at Mason.

Here is my 10,000 foot view and what we tend to see. Even with AP calc or post-calc courses, many, many of our students are repeating calc and other courses like linear alg. because their foundations aren't strong enough. I'd say, these students tend to do well repeating because it's another pass on the material and reinforces what they already know. For the students who take the credit and move up, I've seen them struggle, but they do complete their programs. You tend to see more C's in things like material science & engineering courses and physics but they do finish and end up employed fwiw. The kids who are repeating tend to get higher grades (based on the students I have counseled/mentored for 10 years or so).

How do the kids retaking Calc perform compared to kids taking Calc for the first time in college? It seems to me that the advantage of taking AP Calc, perhaps AP Stats, and post-AP classes is not the ability to skip them but rather to have a quasi review, easyish A in coursework that would otherwise be a weed out class. I'd hate to be the kid seeing the material in BC Calc or Linear Algebra for the first time in a class filled with kids who already somewhat know the material.

If having good foundations is important, wouldn't passing through calculus and linear algebra twice be the most helpful? Kids would learn the material more superficially in high school, and then really dial the material in when they take the college classes.

Mason professor here.

My advisees who went into college and took calculus for the first time had a mix of outcomes. Some struggled because they needed support in math. Some did really well because they were ready to take on the material even if they only got to precalc in high school. It really was a mix.

The biggest thing that drove success was three things: (1) a willingness to engage with math conceptually -- showing their work, their thinking and being flexible; (2) an understanding that some things won't come easily and they need help and understood how to ask for help, accept help, and follow the suggestions of their TAs, tutors, professors; and (3) maturity...that latter point is something I've seen over and over again -- the older students -- especially the kids who went to NOVA and slowly made their way to GMU -- have the highest success when I think through things. I've seen far fewer of these students flounder compared to the student who opted to skip calc and other fundamental math courses and charge into the higher level classes in our department. In terms of buckets, the most successful students (as in the highest GPAs) as a whole;

1) the group that took calc and/or higher level math & science courses and decided to redo some or all of them to get a better grounding;
2) the NOVA/community college kids who slowly went through math and then took the entry level courses in STEM at Mason before moving up (I attribute this to maturity)
3) the Mason direct admits who went through the basic math classes and science classes and entered Mason without calc or just AB calc; (I attribute the difference from the previous group to maturity).
4) the Mason kids who took the credits and went into the higher level classes (I would say 75 percent of them struggled...about a quarter did amazing like group one, fwiw).

Anonymous wrote:We passed on that option. We had just come back from vacation the day of the Iowa test and fortunately they failed it. Went to TJ then Ivy. It’s VERY very important that the basics in math are well understood. Rushing at this level trips many kids up later in HS. They end up taking very advanced math they don’t even need. All it does is wreck their GPA.

We have to move away from this notion that slow and watered down math track = solid foundation. No, all that means is slow and watered down. It will just delay the inevitable to college and suffering in college/university. We need appropriate (whether slower or accelerated) math education for students. Many countries are way ahead of US in education including math education.

We passed on that option. We had just come back from vacation the day of the Iowa test and fortunately they failed it. Went to TJ then Ivy. It’s VERY very important that the basics in math are well understood. Rushing at this level trips many kids up later in HS. They end up taking very advanced math they don’t even need. All it does is wreck their GPA.

If the acceleration is pushed by the parents when the child is not ready or interested, the child will be disadvantaged either in the short or long term. TJ is no longer accepting those students anymore.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant also and I actually don't get the whole thing about starting algebra in any particular grade. Like, in my own country (first grade), children solve equations (e.g. x+10=21, 18-x=3 etc) in the first grade. in the fourth grade they are doing various combinations e.g. (x*3+23234234)-987987=234234. it builds from there. They also learn to translate increasingly complex word problems into equations. But there is no big announcement of "now we are starting algebra", it's all called math. and yes, all kids are doing the same program, but some are better in it than others. the good ones get higher grades, obviously, but that's about it.

This is why what the US call Algebra 1 is confusing with cross-cultural comparisons, because kids do those kinds of equations in elementary school and it's considered pre-algebra, whereas many countries from elementary on.

but kids have gone to school in the US and have not done any of those problems. haven't used variables as stand ins for anything. I am not sure teachers could solve some of the stuff that 4th graders are doing in my home country (Eastern Europe, but not Russia). you make it sound like in the US they are learning harder stuff but actually I have never seen a challenging problem.

+1000 I was lucky to find and grab a bunch of middle/high school math books from my home country when I visited a few years back. Completely different approach and tons of problem solving, many problems I wasn't sure I could do, especially geometry. Algebra and Geometry were taught in an integrated way, every single book had some degree of geometry problems to solve that were tied to the topics in the book. Calculus was not watered down, it was built up with rigorous definition of limits, similar to what is seen in an intro to real analysis course, this was typically covered in 11 and 12th books, though limits were typically seen even in the 10th grade books. Again, completely different approach, nothing was watered down, very few simple "exercises", much of the material was "problems" that had to be solved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant also and I actually don't get the whole thing about starting algebra in any particular grade. Like, in my own country (first grade), children solve equations (e.g. x+10=21, 18-x=3 etc) in the first grade. in the fourth grade they are doing various combinations e.g. (x*3+23234234)-987987=234234. it builds from there. They also learn to translate increasingly complex word problems into equations. But there is no big announcement of "now we are starting algebra", it's all called math. and yes, all kids are doing the same program, but some are better in it than others. the good ones get higher grades, obviously, but that's about it.

This is why what the US call Algebra 1 is confusing with cross-cultural comparisons, because kids do those kinds of equations in elementary school and it's considered pre-algebra, whereas many countries from elementary on.

but kids have gone to school in the US and have not done any of those problems. haven't used variables as stand ins for anything. I am not sure teachers could solve some of the stuff that 4th graders are doing in my home country (Eastern Europe, but not Russia). you make it sound like in the US they are learning harder stuff but actually I have never seen a challenging problem.

Anonymous wrote:In some public districts, it is the only area where kids are ability grouped and getting in the higher math class tends to make your cohort for all classes the kids who are more serious about school, do the homework, engage in class discussion and have less disruptive behavior (generally). Once you are on that track, it carries through to high school. It can be very difficult to learn in a classroom with a lot of behavior problems and disinterested classmates.

It's not always about Algebra.

+1
It’s a proxy

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not. Exactly what percentage of Russians and South Koreans and Poles and Chinese are taking Algebra in 6th and 7th grade? I doubt that the number is as high as you all think. The elite and people who can afford the tutoring and prep are pushing STEM in many countries. This is not a wide spread thing and if you think that it is, I have a bridge to sell you for a low, low price.

+1

That PP said that in these countries everyone takes algebra in 7th, which is flatly not true.

Every single kid in Russia starts taking both algebra and geometry in 7th grade But those are not one ow two year courses, basically they are taught until the end of high school. I believe but not 100% sure that the students are also taught pre-calc and maybe even calc in two final grades (10th and 11th).
This is the basic curriculum for all non STEM students. STEM students usually study the same things but in much more depth and usually go beyond Calculus BC.
For that matter biology starts in 6th grade, physics in 7th and chemistry in 8th and al those subjects are taught until the end of high school too, again this is the pathway for every single student

DP. Russia is known for its strong math program. I don't know details but this sounds correct from what I know.

Not sure that it's meaningful to FCPS though. Or applicable here.

Anonymous wrote:I actually teach a college STEM subject at Mason.

Here is my 10,000 foot view and what we tend to see. Even with AP calc or post-calc courses, many, many of our students are repeating calc and other courses like linear alg. because their foundations aren't strong enough. I'd say, these students tend to do well repeating because it's another pass on the material and reinforces what they already know. For the students who take the credit and move up, I've seen them struggle, but they do complete their programs. You tend to see more C's in things like material science & engineering courses and physics but they do finish and end up employed fwiw. The kids who are repeating tend to get higher grades (based on the students I have counseled/mentored for 10 years or so).

I went to a different STEM school for undergrad and finished my PhD coursework at another different university. My personal experiences have been consistent across the board.

My own kids are small and in elementary. I honestly don't care if they do Alg. in 7th. I'd rather see them comfortable with math generally (and by that I mean working on problems that require critical thinking, showing their work, etc). I want them to be confident enough to try and secure enough to ask for help when they need it. These are the types of issues I see in the college setting.

My opinion is pretty much based on my own experience. So take it fwiw.

I have a relative who is a math professor at a college known for its STEM graduates who says exactly the same as above, and has been saying this for years. My relative does not teach at GMU, but other than that could have written pretty much the same post.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not. Exactly what percentage of Russians and South Koreans and Poles and Chinese are taking Algebra in 6th and 7th grade? I doubt that the number is as high as you all think. The elite and people who can afford the tutoring and prep are pushing STEM in many countries. This is not a wide spread thing and if you think that it is, I have a bridge to sell you for a low, low price.

+1

That PP said that in these countries everyone takes algebra in 7th, which is flatly not true.

Every single kid in Russia starts taking both algebra and geometry in 7th grade But those are not one ow two year courses, basically they are taught until the end of high school. I believe but not 100% sure that the students are also taught pre-calc and maybe even calc in two final grades (10th and 11th).
This is the basic curriculum for all non STEM students. STEM students usually study the same things but in much more depth and usually go beyond Calculus BC.
For that matter biology starts in 6th grade, physics in 7th and chemistry in 8th and al those subjects are taught until the end of high school too, again this is the pathway for every single student

Anonymous wrote:I am not. Exactly what percentage of Russians and South Koreans and Poles and Chinese are taking Algebra in 6th and 7th grade? I doubt that the number is as high as you all think. The elite and people who can afford the tutoring and prep are pushing STEM in many countries. This is not a wide spread thing and if you think that it is, I have a bridge to sell you for a low, low price.

+1

That PP said that in these countries everyone takes algebra in 7th, which is flatly not true.

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant also and I actually don't get the whole thing about starting algebra in any particular grade. Like, in my own country (first grade), children solve equations (e.g. x+10=21, 18-x=3 etc) in the first grade. in the fourth grade they are doing various combinations e.g. (x*3+23234234)-987987=234234. it builds from there. They also learn to translate increasingly complex word problems into equations. But there is no big announcement of "now we are starting algebra", it's all called math. and yes, all kids are doing the same program, but some are better in it than others. the good ones get higher grades, obviously, but that's about it.

This is why what the US call Algebra 1 is confusing with cross-cultural comparisons, because kids do those kinds of equations in elementary school and it's considered pre-algebra, whereas many countries from elementary on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

I have two children.

One did not take algebra honors until 8th grade. He did take AP Calc BC and AP Stats in his senior year. He majored in computer engineering at a top ten engineering school Dec 2019) and is now in the workforce and earning a masters through his employers. This path worked for him as he just needed an extra year for things to gel.

The second one did take Algebra Honors in 7th. He took BC Calc in 11th grade and took Matrix/ Multivar in 12th. He just graduated as a math major and is now applying for math PhD programs. He has never had a math class he didn’t like/love. Math is his language. Taking Algebra Honors in 7th was right for him.

It works for some kids and other need more foundation or just more time for their minds to gel.

Now that I have read some of the responses, I have a few things to add. My kids felt that they were extremely well prepared in their HS math and science classes for their science and math classes in college.

The engineer qualified to skip one year of Calc in college, but decided to retake the second semester to make sure he had it and found it basically an easy A repeat class.

The Math major got credit for three semesters of Calc that included the multivar and matrix alg as the third semester. He did not retake any and went straight to differential equations. It worked for him. He got all As in all his math classes. Again, math is his language and superpower. 🙂

I am an immigrant also and I actually don't get the whole thing about starting algebra in any particular grade. Like, in my own country (first grade), children solve equations (e.g. x+10=21, 18-x=3 etc) in the first grade. in the fourth grade they are doing various combinations e.g. (x*3+23234234)-987987=234234. it builds from there. They also learn to translate increasingly complex word problems into equations. But there is no big announcement of "now we are starting algebra", it's all called math. and yes, all kids are doing the same program, but some are better in it than others. the good ones get higher grades, obviously, but that's about it.