One of my smarter friends became a tax attorney which she says is intellectually stimulating, but mostly because she has to understand accounting rules enough to minimize taxes while staying on the right side of the law.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Significantly smarter than the average person. The vast majority of Americans could not write a legal brief of such a standard that it would be admitted to a court of law. In addition, the vast majority of Americans could not successfully make a lengthy and complex verbal argument before a group of judges/jurors/attorneys. Most people are way too disorganized in their thoughts.

It's also pretty high stress. I work in a federal agency as a subject matter expert with a lot of lawyers, though I am not an attorney. They act as a final guardrail for anything we say or do, ensuring that we are in compliance with the law or are not misconstruing statute or regulation. They carry an immense responsibility.

Training != Intellect. Attorneys aren't born with an inherent ability to write a legal brief. They are trained to write them and surely their first one isn't nearly as good as their 100th.

Actually totally disagree. As someone who has mentored a LOT of fellows and associates, almost all the good writers are good writers from the first day they walk through the door. It's just that you can train the bad ones to be somewhat less bad.

Not sure why folks are so insistent that good writing is not a skill and marker of intelligence. It's just that it is only one of many possible markers of intelligence, just as good lawyering is just one type of intelligence among many.

Attorney here. I don't think being an attorney requires a high IQ and many areas of law are not intellectually challenging, but there is a minimum level of intelligence that a good portion of the general population likely has. However, I also think that most lawyers possess a set of skills that many people do not have and those skills may be presumed to be associated with people of a higher intelligence. Most lawyers tend to be good students from a young age. Most have been good readers and writers all their lives. Most are detail-oriented and tend to be methodical, logical thinkers with a Type A personality. Most have good judgment and decision-making abilities at least in their professional capacity. While some degree of intelligence is needed, these skills tend to be more important and more prevalent than intelligence.

Clearly this doesn't apply to all attorneys but I'd say it applies to most.

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of the less-smart lawyers do better than the smarter ones. So many lawyers are risk-averse and are attracted to the more intellectual side of law, which doesn’t pay that much unless you’re a big law partner. Compare that to somebody who is just out to make money and has connections and they start one of those personal injury mill firms. I know somebody like that and they rake in way more money than DH does (he’s in big law and makes 575).

And to be clear I don’t think there is anything wrong with not being smart or starting a big personal injury firm. It’s just a different way of going about your life.

I think a lot of the less-smart lawyers do better than the smarter ones. So many lawyers are risk-averse and are attracted to the more intellectual side of law, which doesn’t pay that much unless you’re a big law partner. Compare that to somebody who is just out to make money and has connections and they start one of those personal injury mill firms. I know somebody like that and they rake in way more money than DH does (he’s in big law and makes 575).

Answer is it depends. The premium paid for elite biglaw is significant for a reason.

To PP, most of the country has a functional 10th grade education regardless of actual level. That covers some lawyers too. I come from a blue collar family. Can they understand why Bill Cosby is free but not someone else? No. There is a level of thought organization and reading comprehension that most lawyers have that is far beyond others. Are they smarter if we were getting IQ tests? Probably not. But in those areas they are far above normal people.

It’s very easy to talk with someone snd say “they are really dumb” how did they become a professional? Seriously ignorant.

Anonymous wrote:Meh. Being a lawyer is just a regular college degree in almost all other countries. I think somebody set it up to be some kind of racket here in America. I think it simply takes the right kind of personality and ego.

And I practice international law and lawyers, like in the UK are awful. UK is starting to think about moving to US style as is much of the rest of the world.

Anonymous wrote:Despite all the hate for lawyers it goes take academic brain power to be a successful lawyer. Also an attorney is different than a lawyer and takes more skill. Attorney is generally business or finance.

Specifically, how does an 'attorney' differ from a 'lawyer'?

I am an attorney. There is a broad broad spectrum ranging from real estate attorneys who are churning and burning residential closings to appellate lawyers who are arguing before the Supreme Court and everything in between. I have been fairly successful based on a combo of working really hard and being smart enough. There are doctors who are not so smart too....I have encountered them.

Some are very smart, some are average, some aren’t really even average. Typically the “dumb” lawyers PP are talking about are LAZY lawyers, who also aren’t smart enough to be lazy and do a good job.

Same with doctors, I’ve met some medical doctors who are very smart/intelligent, and some who are pretty much dunderheads outside their medical speciality. See also engineers and scientists and accountants.

Professors (high ed) are probably the group of people that I’ve noticed that are generally consistently intelligent and intellectually curious, but of course, that’s anecdotal and full of observer bias.

I also think people tend to mis-estimate the ‘intelligence’ of the average person, it’s not that people are inherently stupid/dumb, it’s that they are intellectually lazy, and things like poor grammar* (spoken or written) or not having a basic understanding of history, literature, science, and/or math just doesn’t bother them. Who cares if their FB post about their weekend plans isn’t properly written or if they don’t know the difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War.


* I’ve reviewed my post a few times since I mentioned grammar, which means I’m 10x as likely to have made a trivial mistake or typo in my post…

To be a good lawyer, yes.
But there are a lot of bad lawyers and some who are barely better than con artists.
I work in a field where I work with a lot of “ordinary folks” of very mixed educational backgrounds. There are some people that can really grasp or intuit a legal argument quickly even with very little education—better than some lawyers.

Before my law degree, I got an engineering degree. I can say for me engineering was infinitely harder. I went to Georgetown law while working many hours at a law firm. And still graduated top of my GT law class. In my practice I’ve dealt with lots of extremely technical issues. I’d say it’s not been very intellectually challenging.

Anonymous wrote:I think some electricians are smarter and their job is more intellectually demanding than some attorney jobs.

Well, not that many attorneys have clients who will be electrocuted if they lose. Only lawyers in Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, Kentucky, and Tennessee need to worry about that.

Anonymous wrote:Significantly smarter than the average person. The vast majority of Americans could not write a legal brief of such a standard that it would be admitted to a court of law. In addition, the vast majority of Americans could not successfully make a lengthy and complex verbal argument before a group of judges/jurors/attorneys. Most people are way too disorganized in their thoughts.

It's also pretty high stress. I work in a federal agency as a subject matter expert with a lot of lawyers, though I am not an attorney. They act as a final guardrail for anything we say or do, ensuring that we are in compliance with the law or are not misconstruing statute or regulation. They carry an immense responsibility.

Training != Intellect. Attorneys aren't born with an inherent ability to write a legal brief. They are trained to write them and surely their first one isn't nearly as good as their 100th.