Gay man here, mid 40s. Just wanted to say that I find this thread fascinating. I don’t think the same dynamic generally exists at all in gay men. I’ve never heard of anyone knowing anyone that transitioned from gay man to trans woman, except those for whom it was always obvious to them and others that being a trans woman was always who they were, surgery of any type or not.

I hate to be crass, but gay men uniformly seem to really like dick. It’s kinda the underlying uniting characteristic of being a gay man.

Anonymous wrote:I don't totally get why lesbian relationships often take on a butch/femme vibe to being with. If you want to be with a woman why do you gravitate towards a more masculine woman? I know this is complex and has to do with personal experience, family of origin, and gender roles within the relationship but sometimes I see lesbian relationships that are even more general stereotyped than cis/hetero relationships, in which the butch spouse wears mens shirts, sports short hair, is the only or major provider, and does all the handiwork and finances. To each her own it just seems kind of ironic to be so gender-stereotyped within a same-sex relationship.

Because they like all the stuff that comes with a traditional femme gender role, but also prefer to have sex with female plumbing. Why is that so hard to understand? Some women think penises are gross. Why should everyone have to be Gloria Steinem just because that person happens to think that penises are gross? Smashing gender stereotypes is not everybody’s be-all and end-all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't totally get why lesbian relationships often take on a butch/femme vibe to being with. If you want to be with a woman why do you gravitate towards a more masculine woman? I know this is complex and has to do with personal experience, family of origin, and gender roles within the relationship but sometimes I see lesbian relationships that are even more general stereotyped than cis/hetero relationships, in which the butch spouse wears mens shirts, sports short hair, is the only or major provider, and does all the handiwork and finances. To each her own it just seems kind of ironic to be so gender-stereotyped within a same-sex relationship.

Most of the lesbians I know are two soft butch women together. Second most popular seems to be two femmes. I only know one couple with a very femme woman with a very masculine presenting one.

Well I’m the PP who wrote this and my two most solid couples friends (as in two different dyke couples) are both butch/femme. Probably two of the most solid marriages out of all my married friends too. We are Gen X if that makes a difference. All entering 50s now.

Anonymous wrote:I don't totally get why lesbian relationships often take on a butch/femme vibe to being with. If you want to be with a woman why do you gravitate towards a more masculine woman? I know this is complex and has to do with personal experience, family of origin, and gender roles within the relationship but sometimes I see lesbian relationships that are even more general stereotyped than cis/hetero relationships, in which the butch spouse wears mens shirts, sports short hair, is the only or major provider, and does all the handiwork and finances. To each her own it just seems kind of ironic to be so gender-stereotyped within a same-sex relationship.

Most of the lesbians I know are two soft butch women together. Second most popular seems to be two femmes. I only know one couple with a very femme woman with a very masculine presenting one.

Anonymous wrote:I don't totally get why lesbian relationships often take on a butch/femme vibe to being with. If you want to be with a woman why do you gravitate towards a more masculine woman? I know this is complex and has to do with personal experience, family of origin, and gender roles within the relationship but sometimes I see lesbian relationships that are even more general stereotyped than cis/hetero relationships, in which the butch spouse wears mens shirts, sports short hair, is the only or major provider, and does all the handiwork and finances. To each her own it just seems kind of ironic to be so gender-stereotyped within a same-sex relationship.

That’s the old days you are talking about. Because back in those days, that’s the only kind of “couple” there was, so it was natural to play roles in that way.
Nowadays it’s much more common to see two androgynous women together, or two femmes, or other pairings. Pretty rare in lesbian relationships for one partner to be like a SAH wife.
And remember - masculine women are still women. They still have the right stuff. Feminine women do not own all of the attractiveness out there.

I don't totally get why lesbian relationships often take on a butch/femme vibe to being with. If you want to be with a woman why do you gravitate towards a more masculine woman? I know this is complex and has to do with personal experience, family of origin, and gender roles within the relationship but sometimes I see lesbian relationships that are even more general stereotyped than cis/hetero relationships, in which the butch spouse wears mens shirts, sports short hair, is the only or major provider, and does all the handiwork and finances. To each her own it just seems kind of ironic to be so gender-stereotyped within a same-sex relationship.

Anonymous wrote:Butch lesbian here. I have friends who have transitioned, friends who are IDing as gender queer. I want people to feel comfortable in their skin and in their lives. Ideally, I would have chest surgery- maybe not to flat but certainly to a small B or even big A cup. Not because I want to be a man but because it would better fit my ideal body shape.

I think a lot of what OP is seeing has to do with her age. Transition is expensive and emotional for a lot of people and sometimes there’s a state of trying to fit in between.

Trans men are men, butch women are women- but the ways in which gender is presented in all the in between- from the very most femme woman or masculine dude to the most femme dude to masculine woman and all those people who fall in between or beyond… well, that’s just been one of the most lovely surprises of my adulthood. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

This is lovely & I agree - mom to a non-binary college student.

I'm not gay but just wanted to say that I'm sorry you are feeling badly, OP.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t agree with those criticizing OP. Her feelings are her feelings. She’s not trying to interfere with the choices of others. She can feel bummed and respect their choices at the same time.

OP is also projecting her feelings onto the motives and feelings of trans men.

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Anonymous wrote:As a straight woman who is not particularly into girl stuff, I’ve always appreciate butch lesbians for being at the forefront of challenging what it means to be a woman. I’m also sad to see many of them transitioning to men. And, yes, I know it’s not about me and my desire to have other people challenge gender norms for me. Sigh. But I do appreciate that we are moving to a world where everyone can be who they want to be.

NP. Are they, though?
I’m an older soft-butch lesbian and I am really skeptical that the desire to transition is truly borne out of “just being myself.”
All this transitioning seems very binary-reinforcing and serves “blending in” much more than being accepted in society as a butch lesbian.
And I also wonder what the long term is like for butch lesbians who transition. Are straight women really interested?
As a gay women, I do not find myself attracted to trans men who have medically transitioned. I can’t imagine my straight girl friends being very interested either.
OP I hope this fad ends soon. There’s going to be a backlash. I really hope that butch lesbians will reclaim space for themselves.
Also, where are you? Maybe get out into some different circles. I don’t think this is happening equally everywhere.

You would be surprised. I know two adult cis women in relationships with trans men. Both of the men are attractive and good partners. There are also several trans male actors who are very easy on the eyes like the firefighter on 9-1-1 Lone Star.

Elliot Page got divorced almost immediately after transitioning. His former spouse signed up to be in a relationship with a lesbian woman not a man. I imagine this is the most common outcome after transitioning.

It depends. I know people in the trans SO community (I'm one as well) and some people make it work. It depends on the orientation of the people involved usually. I'm fine being in a platonic marriage, so I'm okay with that fact that our orientations no longer match, but most aren't. In my experience most of the people who stay or try are bi cis women in marriages to trans women. There's a lot fewer male partners. That's just my support group though, it may not be representative.

I know two couples that were originally ordinary hetero marriages but then the man announced they were trans and transitioned to live “as women”. Both wives stayed with them. I think it’s a combination of a lot of factors that keep them together, but one thing I noticed about both the female spouses as that they have generally been quiet “just go along” types who tend to let their spouses speak for them. And women are more fluid (or at least more socially allowed to be fluid) and maybe just don’t need a masculine male partner.

I don’t agree with those criticizing OP. Her feelings are her feelings. She’s not trying to interfere with the choices of others. She can feel bummed and respect their choices at the same time.

Anonymous wrote:Butch lesbian here. I have friends who have transitioned, friends who are IDing as gender queer. I want people to feel comfortable in their skin and in their lives. Ideally, I would have chest surgery- maybe not to flat but certainly to a small B or even big A cup. Not because I want to be a man but because it would better fit my ideal body shape.

I think a lot of what OP is seeing has to do with her age. Transition is expensive and emotional for a lot of people and sometimes there’s a state of trying to fit in between.

Trans men are men, butch women are women- but the ways in which gender is presented in all the in between- from the very most femme woman or masculine dude to the most femme dude to masculine woman and all those people who fall in between or beyond… well, that’s just been one of the most lovely surprises of my adulthood. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

This. I think this is a specific version of a very common issue, especially in the LGBTQ+ community but really among young people generally, which is that it takes many people most of their 20s to figure out who they are and what kind of life they want to lead. Transitioning is a dramatic and generally permanent example, but you run into this with people deciding they want to be poly, or deciding whether or not having kids is something they want to prioritize. It is very, very common to get involved with people in your 20s and then to feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you when they decide that they are someone different than you thought, or hoped, them to be.

But I agree with you PP -- the diversity out there is encouraging and while I think it's painful at times (life is always painful at times), ultimately it is good that we live in a society that is making space for this kind of exploration and experimentation earlier in life. I know and have known a number of people who have gone through this much later in life, often after having children and being in longterm relationships or marriages, and I can say without a doubt that we all benefit from giving people more space to make these discoveries earlier in life.

Butch lesbian here. I have friends who have transitioned, friends who are IDing as gender queer. I want people to feel comfortable in their skin and in their lives. Ideally, I would have chest surgery- maybe not to flat but certainly to a small B or even big A cup. Not because I want to be a man but because it would better fit my ideal body shape.

I think a lot of what OP is seeing has to do with her age. Transition is expensive and emotional for a lot of people and sometimes there’s a state of trying to fit in between.

Trans men are men, butch women are women- but the ways in which gender is presented in all the in between- from the very most femme woman or masculine dude to the most femme dude to masculine woman and all those people who fall in between or beyond… well, that’s just been one of the most lovely surprises of my adulthood. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a straight woman who is not particularly into girl stuff, I’ve always appreciate butch lesbians for being at the forefront of challenging what it means to be a woman. I’m also sad to see many of them transitioning to men. And, yes, I know it’s not about me and my desire to have other people challenge gender norms for me. Sigh. But I do appreciate that we are moving to a world where everyone can be who they want to be.

NP. Are they, though?
I’m an older soft-butch lesbian and I am really skeptical that the desire to transition is truly borne out of “just being myself.”
All this transitioning seems very binary-reinforcing and serves “blending in” much more than being accepted in society as a butch lesbian.
And I also wonder what the long term is like for butch lesbians who transition. Are straight women really interested?
As a gay women, I do not find myself attracted to trans men who have medically transitioned. I can’t imagine my straight girl friends being very interested either.
OP I hope this fad ends soon. There’s going to be a backlash. I really hope that butch lesbians will reclaim space for themselves.
Also, where are you? Maybe get out into some different circles. I don’t think this is happening equally everywhere.

You would be surprised. I know two adult cis women in relationships with trans men. Both of the men are attractive and good partners. There are also several trans male actors who are very easy on the eyes like the firefighter on 9-1-1 Lone Star.

Elliot Page got divorced almost immediately after transitioning. His former spouse signed up to be in a relationship with a lesbian woman not a man. I imagine this is the most common outcome after transitioning.

It depends. I know people in the trans SO community (I'm one as well) and some people make it work. It depends on the orientation of the people involved usually. I'm fine being in a platonic marriage, so I'm okay with that fact that our orientations no longer match, but most aren't. In my experience most of the people who stay or try are bi cis women in marriages to trans women. There's a lot fewer male partners. That's just my support group though, it may not be representative.

I agree with a lot of what is said. I think rather than accepting the diversity of womanhood we are falling prey to stereotypes.