jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

I get that it chaps, but you’re wrong about this point categorically. Dense qualitative description by itself has critical value, even if no prescriptions are in it.

I think you’re very personally invested on this point (which is understandable; it’s not enjoyable to learn that one is unintentionally cultivating a racist garden), and that your investment is driving you to positions you know aren’t defensible. The idea that Brookings has to have a policy prescription on hand for every problem it identifies is one of those.

I wouldn't write a shorter letter, I'd write a longer one, by a few paras. I suggest seeing if you can't get the Post to run a piece on the Brookings Report controversy, with pullout quotes from your letter and an embedded link to the full text. Your response has the makings of a news story, not just an opinion piece on your part.

As a Ward 6 parent, I'm a tad disappointed that your letter doesn't mention us, here in the swathe of the city with the most racially and socioeconomically diverse group of DCPS elementary schools. Hill parents have done yeoman's work since the 1980s to ensure that half a dozen highly diverse elementary schools thrive. But the great majority of us still leave DCPS for middle school, seeking more academic rigor than our by-right 6th-8th grade schools provide.

Our DCPS middle school programs don't offer enough in the way of ability grouping/academic tracking to attract many in-boundary families, even as these programs essentially guarantee universal social promotion, a catch-22 for us as a parent group. Nonetheless, to school system leaders and the authors of the Brookings Report report, we're to blame for the fact that none of our several DCPS Ward 6 middle schools enrolls a majority of in-boundary students. The catchment areas for these middle schools are majority white these days, yet white enrollment languishes at 2% (Jefferson Academy, Eliot-Hine) and 15% (Stuart Hobson).

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

NP but it seems like common sense to me that Brookings is actually critiquing both the system and the actors, and you're interpreting it primarily as a personal attack ("they keep calling us segregationists"). When you try to turn a discussion about systemic racism into a conversation about whether or not you're a nice person, you're centering yourself in an unhelpful and unsympathetic way. I agree with the PPs that say you should leave this alone or at least re-read and edit it when you're not so upset. If you have to respond it should be about the weaknesses inherent in the methodology, the fact that boundaries were redrawn during the survey time, and the less outraged points.

Not to pile on, but I've reported enough overtly racist stuff on the schools forum to know that there's plenty of meat on the report's bones. You've deleted most, though not all, of it, so I'm not sure why you're committed to arguing that racism doesn't play a role in the school choices made by posters here. Stop looking at it as about you and start looking at is about the aggregate of posts. The methodology is flawed but it's not like they're coming out of fantasy land.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP: For one thing, DC schools are actually becoming less segregated. In 2000, there were just over 1000 white students in DCPS, total. The only way for DC to increase the number of integrated schools is keep white students from moving to the suburbs or going to private school. Slowly, it has been succeeding, and that success is rolling east and south. By 16-17, according to OSSE white students were 20% of the school aged population and 10% and DC public schools. Now they are up to 16% of DCPS, more schools have white students than before; 59% of schools become more diverse between 2014 and 2017. But there still are not enough to integrate all the schools. So really, the report seeks to demonize the very people who are integrating DC's schools. I would even suggest that this site has done more to encourage and keep white parents in DC schools than DC has. Information, word of mouth, access to sometimes obscure data, learning how to use the lottery, etc. all of this makes is easier and more likely for parents to stay in DC. I bet if you polled white DCPS/PCS parents and asked if this site influenced their decision to try DCPS or stay in DC, a whole lot would say yes.

This is a very good post and raises some points that I had been thinking about but had been unable to articulate. If you don't mind, I would like to work some of this into my post.

Sure.

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

There doesn’t have to be an accurate prescription for the diagnosis to be true.

You will live to regret having reacted to this paper’s accurate description of what is happening here as though it is inaccurate because there isn’t an obvious prescription for fixing it, is my guess. The list of what kind of posters are here reads a lot like “some of my best friends are Black.”

But don't you see the problem with your response? You are essentially saying that there is a problem, you have no idea how to solve it, but you expect others to solve it. Those that you expect to solve it don't know how to solve it either. But, they have to make choices and they are making the best choices they can under the circumstances.

I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Anonymous wrote:It's well done and I agree with the that a briefer version should be ready for whenever the Post picks it up.

One other thing missing from the Brookings piece that is kind of obvious. There is a massive digital divide in the city. Brookings has probably even done studies on it. The demographics of this board and their topics of interest likely overlap with the parts of the city with the highest internet usage.

Probably, but now I'm wondering about the quality of those, too.

Other reputable institutions have studied the digital divide, though.

Anonymous wrote:DP: For one thing, DC schools are actually becoming less segregated. In 2000, there were just over 1000 white students in DCPS, total. The only way for DC to increase the number of integrated schools is keep white students from moving to the suburbs or going to private school. Slowly, it has been succeeding, and that success is rolling east and south. By 16-17, according to OSSE white students were 20% of the school aged population and 10% and DC public schools. Now they are up to 16% of DCPS, more schools have white students than before; 59% of schools become more diverse between 2014 and 2017. But there still are not enough to integrate all the schools. So really, the report seeks to demonize the very people who are integrating DC's schools. I would even suggest that this site has done more to encourage and keep white parents in DC schools than DC has. Information, word of mouth, access to sometimes obscure data, learning how to use the lottery, etc. all of this makes is easier and more likely for parents to stay in DC. I bet if you polled white DCPS/PCS parents and asked if this site influenced their decision to try DCPS or stay in DC, a whole lot would say yes.

This is a very good post and raises some points that I had been thinking about but had been unable to articulate. If you don't mind, I would like to work some of this into my post.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

DP: For one thing, DC schools are actually becoming less segregated. In 2000, there were just over 1000 white students in DCPS, total. The only way for DC to increase the number of integrated schools is keep white students from moving to the suburbs or going to private school. Slowly, it has been succeeding, and that success is rolling east and south. By 16-17, according to OSSE white students were 20% of the school aged population and 10% and DC public schools. Now they are up to 16% of DCPS, more schools have white students than before; 59% of schools become more diverse between 2014 and 2017. But there still are not enough to integrate all the schools. So really, the report seeks to demonize the very people who are integrating DC's schools. I would even suggest that this site has done more to encourage and keep white parents in DC schools than DC has. Information, word of mouth, access to sometimes obscure data, learning how to use the lottery, etc. all of this makes is easier and more likely for parents to stay in DC. I bet if you polled white DCPS/PCS parents and asked if this site influenced their decision to try DCPS or stay in DC, a whole lot would say yes.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

There doesn’t have to be an accurate prescription for the diagnosis to be true.

You will live to regret having reacted to this paper’s accurate description of what is happening here as though it is inaccurate because there isn’t an obvious prescription for fixing it, is my guess. The list of what kind of posters are here reads a lot like “some of my best friends are Black.”

But don't you see the problem with your response? You are essentially saying that there is a problem, you have no idea how to solve it, but you expect others to solve it. Those that you expect to solve it don't know how to solve it either. But, they have to make choices and they are making the best choices they can under the circumstances.

It's well done and I agree with the that a briefer version should be ready for whenever the Post picks it up.

One other thing missing from the Brookings piece that is kind of obvious. There is a massive digital divide in the city. Brookings has probably even done studies on it. The demographics of this board and their topics of interest likely overlap with the parts of the city with the highest internet usage.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

There doesn’t have to be an accurate prescription for the diagnosis to be true.

You will live to regret having reacted to this paper’s accurate description of what is happening here as though it is inaccurate because there isn’t an obvious prescription for fixing it, is my guess. The list of what kind of posters are here reads a lot like “some of my best friends are Black.”

Anonymous wrote:
1. Attend and support neighborhood schools
2. Equalize school funding - perhaps a percentage of PTO contributions over a certain amount are redistributed across all district schools that raise under that amount? There are likely better ways to do this, but it would be a start to correct some of the inequity.
3. Reconsider how you define integrated. Look beyond your HRPCS
4. Consider why you’re being so defensive. The report is flawed, but it isn’t completely off base. A lot of white people in DC and on DCUM are not overtly racist or segregationist, but taking advantage of and benefitting from a racist and segregated system.

Number 1 is exactly what a lot of posters are doing and being called segregationist for their efforts. Remember that the report found that "in-bounds" was the most commonly used term.

Number 2 has nothing to do with parents school choices.

Number 3 you will have to explain to me. In this context, I define integration as having a significant number of students of different races. What about that should I reconsider?

Number 4 you are circling back to the original issue. Yes, I agree that we have a racist and segregated system. That system has existed throughout the history of the United States. What do you want parents to do about it in terms of their school choices? Choices, incidentally, that people of color are also making. Beyond supporting local schools -- something many of our posters are already doing -- what do you want our posters to change about their school choices?

I like it. I think it's worth considering a much abbreviated letter to the editor of the Washington Post with the points that are specific about the study's flawed methodology (depending on what the WP reports on the study... Maybe tomorrow?).

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

1. Attend and support neighborhood schools
2. Equalize school funding - perhaps a percentage of PTO contributions over a certain amount are redistributed across all district schools that raise under that amount? There are likely better ways to do this, but it would be a start to correct some of the inequity.
3. Reconsider how you define integrated. Look beyond your HRPCS
4. Consider why you’re being so defensive. The report is flawed, but it isn’t completely off base. A lot of white people in DC and on DCUM are not overtly racist or segregationist, but taking advantage of and benefitting from a racist and segregated system.