Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:no kid wants to learn about his especially in a book they want turkey and stuffing and dessert, lots of dessert.

Maybe your kid. Mine love everything about books, especially as a way to explore the world around them or the past.

We are American Indian. We read all sorts of Thanksgiving books. Indians aren't a monolith. My kids are still young, but we have a lot of simpler conversations about Indians (teepees vs long houses, views on land and cultural differences). We talk a lot about how Americans took advantage of the Indians.

You mean the NAs that bought sold and kept African slaves? The NAs that sold land to traders and settlers and then reneged and massacred them, or the Iroquois that pushed the Sioux out that pushed the Cheyenne out that pushed out the Kiowa ?

People are people. If you look at the truth you’ll see there are no saints just people and cultures in conflict for survival. The NAs weren’t taken advantage of, they were in conflict and another culture prevailed. Just as the Mayans and Aztecs “took advantage” of their neighbors before any European set foot in America.

There are so many holes in this argument that I don't even know where to start. A different NDN here.

Let me start with what you have correct-- people are people everywhere. Yes, there were conflicts in North America long before Europeans arrived. I despise the 'peaceful, primitive, noble trope' as much as the 'savage, barbaric, animalistic' one.

However, this argument you have made is akin to someone saying, "What slavery? You mean those Africans who were already capturing and enslaving each other? What's the big deal?"

Anyone with half a brain would point out that the Trans-Atlantic slave trade was on an entirely new scale of cruelty and suffering compared to the common practice of slavery throughout the world.

The Europeans and then the American Government regularly cheated and broke the treaties they signed (such as a treaty specifying the sale of land that could be covered in three days time-- with both sides understanding that this means a walk, and then the government hiring someone to run the distance to secure 2-3x the amount of land). It is no wonder that after watching this that the tribes began to fight 'dirty' too.

Please. Just read about the bounties set for the scalps of Indians, that people used to be hired to kill as many Indians (please read this: https://www.history.com/news/californias-little-known-genocide), massacres like the Sand Creek massacre (in case you are not going to click-- it was the massacre of a village that was flying the US flag and a white flag of truce, mostly women, children, and men too old to fight killed in cold blood).

What happened to the tribes went far beyond any justifiable 'war'.

Education. It is a great thing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a suggestion: stop brainwashing your kids. This ridiculous intersectional anti-racist drivel might make you feel virtuous but all it does is make people think more about race--which is the last thing we need.

There are definitely people who are obsessed with race. Just let people be people!

One more time for the folks in the back.... THIS IS ONLY AN OPTION FOR WHITE PEOPLE!!!! You can't just "be people" as a black person or native American- that's what people see about you first. It affects your life. People being "colorblind" and NOT thinking or talking about race for decades is what got us here. To a boiling point, to a reckoning. Its needed.

And look, I don't even blame white parents in the 70s and 80s for teaching their kids that all people are just people, we should not see color, etc. They were reacting to watching the horrors of the Civil Rights movement in the 60s when they were just kids themselves. My own parents remember the news from when they were 7,8,9,10 years old and where the nice white people who were going to do better for their kids. And in many ways they did. But progress is not linear. As you get more information (like how this actually works for black folks, perception of what color blind means in practice) you adapt, you know better so you do better. So no, its not better to "not think about race" in order to make racism in our institutions go away.

What in the history of humanity has gone away just because you ignore it?

It’s not just white people who don’t teach that everything is based on race. Not all of us want our kids to think they are victims every time something doesn’t go their way.

Anonymous wrote:Yay, more divisive Identity Politics! Get that stuff in the schools!

Bannister America!

Even fairly liberal history teachers can agree that identity politics has definite downsides in the schools:
https://thewayofimprovement.com/2016/12/11/history-education-and-identity-politics-an-exchange-with-a-k-12-history-teacher/

But there's a BIG middle ground between history the way it was taught in the 1950s and full-on critical race theory. Just introduce people of varying backgrounds from the time period, and let that be that. History as a discipline started as just exploring the lives of "great men." Just make "great men" to be "a good sampling of all people from that time period" and you have a good recipe for teaching history.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a suggestion: stop brainwashing your kids. This ridiculous intersectional anti-racist drivel might make you feel virtuous but all it does is make people think more about race--which is the last thing we need.

There are definitely people who are obsessed with race. Just let people be people!

One more time for the folks in the back.... THIS IS ONLY AN OPTION FOR WHITE PEOPLE!!!! You can't just "be people" as a black person or native American- that's what people see about you first. It affects your life. People being "colorblind" and NOT thinking or talking about race for decades is what got us here. To a boiling point, to a reckoning. Its needed.

And look, I don't even blame white parents in the 70s and 80s for teaching their kids that all people are just people, we should not see color, etc. They were reacting to watching the horrors of the Civil Rights movement in the 60s when they were just kids themselves. My own parents remember the news from when they were 7,8,9,10 years old and where the nice white people who were going to do better for their kids. And in many ways they did. But progress is not linear. As you get more information (like how this actually works for black folks, perception of what color blind means in practice) you adapt, you know better so you do better. So no, its not better to "not think about race" in order to make racism in our institutions go away.

What in the history of humanity has gone away just because you ignore it?

Sorry but the first PP is right. Being anti-racist is neither anti-racist nor helpful, individually or societally.

How would you know that? We have literally never tried to do it on a societal level.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:no kid wants to learn about his especially in a book they want turkey and stuffing and dessert, lots of dessert.

Maybe your kid. Mine love everything about books, especially as a way to explore the world around them or the past.

We are American Indian. We read all sorts of Thanksgiving books. Indians aren't a monolith. My kids are still young, but we have a lot of simpler conversations about Indians (teepees vs long houses, views on land and cultural differences). We talk a lot about how Americans took advantage of the Indians.

You mean the NAs that bought sold and kept African slaves? The NAs that sold land to traders and settlers and then reneged and massacred them, or the Iroquois that pushed the Sioux out that pushed the Cheyenne out that pushed out the Kiowa ?

People are people. If you look at the truth you’ll see there are no saints just people and cultures in conflict for survival. The NAs weren’t taken advantage of, they were in conflict and another culture prevailed. Just as the Mayans and Aztecs “took advantage” of their neighbors before any European set foot in America.

This

OP, get a serious World History book, not crazy racist propaganda.

Yay, more divisive Identity Politics! Get that stuff in the schools!

Bannister America!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a suggestion: stop brainwashing your kids. This ridiculous intersectional anti-racist drivel might make you feel virtuous but all it does is make people think more about race--which is the last thing we need.

There are definitely people who are obsessed with race. Just let people be people!

One more time for the folks in the back.... THIS IS ONLY AN OPTION FOR WHITE PEOPLE!!!! You can't just "be people" as a black person or native American- that's what people see about you first. It affects your life. People being "colorblind" and NOT thinking or talking about race for decades is what got us here. To a boiling point, to a reckoning. Its needed.

And look, I don't even blame white parents in the 70s and 80s for teaching their kids that all people are just people, we should not see color, etc. They were reacting to watching the horrors of the Civil Rights movement in the 60s when they were just kids themselves. My own parents remember the news from when they were 7,8,9,10 years old and where the nice white people who were going to do better for their kids. And in many ways they did. But progress is not linear. As you get more information (like how this actually works for black folks, perception of what color blind means in practice) you adapt, you know better so you do better. So no, its not better to "not think about race" in order to make racism in our institutions go away.

What in the history of humanity has gone away just because you ignore it?

Sorry but the first PP is right. Being anti-racist is neither anti-racist nor helpful, individually or societally.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:no kid wants to learn about his especially in a book they want turkey and stuffing and dessert, lots of dessert.

Maybe your kid. Mine love everything about books, especially as a way to explore the world around them or the past.

We are American Indian. We read all sorts of Thanksgiving books. Indians aren't a monolith. My kids are still young, but we have a lot of simpler conversations about Indians (teepees vs long houses, views on land and cultural differences). We talk a lot about how Americans took advantage of the Indians.

You mean the NAs that bought sold and kept African slaves? The NAs that sold land to traders and settlers and then reneged and massacred them, or the Iroquois that pushed the Sioux out that pushed the Cheyenne out that pushed out the Kiowa ?

People are people. If you look at the truth you’ll see there are no saints just people and cultures in conflict for survival. The NAs weren’t taken advantage of, they were in conflict and another culture prevailed. Just as the Mayans and Aztecs “took advantage” of their neighbors before any European set foot in America.

OP here. We are actually fairly devout Catholics, so I know just what to do with Christmas - not sure how that got mixed in.

Thanks for the actual suggestions - I will check them out.

It's really bizarre to me that people object so much to someone looking for a kids book that passes along their values. That's part of being a parent. As a Christian, I read to my daughter from the Bible. If I were looking for a kid's Bible, it would be weird to freak out about how I'm trying to deprogram her

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s so complicated? Pilgrims landed, Indians helped them grow food, and they all had a big feast to celebrate!

Let’s eat and watch some football!

Um, no.

But yes to food and football!

NP here. Obviously there are more details/it’s a bit more complicated, but which of the PP’s statements about “the first Thanksgiving” are you claiming to be false?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When virtue signallers get going like this it makes me wonder do they think their children are racist and need to be deprogrammed? Or do they feel like they themselves have always held racist beliefs and perceptions and need to change themselves?

Can someone recommend a good children’s Christmas book that doesn’t emphasize Christianity and a white baby Jesus and teaches that love and giving are not tied to a religion or a holiday?

I know this is sarcasm, but there are tons of secular Christmas books.

There are also several books with a brown-skinned Holy Family.

I really do not understand the idea of secular Christmas. Why read a "Christmas" book at all?

I remember being a store several years ago and seeing a nativity set that said on the box "nativity scene with child." I thought how odd it was that they avoided mentioning Jesus on the box since a nativity is by definition is religious and anyone buying said nativity would be religious to some extent.

I mean the nativity scene things is silly and I'm an athiest but yeah, its not just a random baby in that scene LOL

But I've lived as an expat in a few countries that are not majority Christian, not by any stretch. That do a huge secular Christmas thing- its mostly commercial , shopping based but honestly its not that different from here, they just don't talk about religion- its about the sparkles and presents and what not only.

Anonymous wrote:What’s so complicated? Pilgrims landed, Indians helped them grow food, and they all had a big feast to celebrate!

Let’s eat and watch some football!

Um, no.

But yes to food and football!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a suggestion: stop brainwashing your kids. This ridiculous intersectional anti-racist drivel might make you feel virtuous but all it does is make people think more about race--which is the last thing we need.

There are definitely people who are obsessed with race. Just let people be people!

One more time for the folks in the back.... THIS IS ONLY AN OPTION FOR WHITE PEOPLE!!!! You can't just "be people" as a black person or native American- that's what people see about you first. It affects your life. People being "colorblind" and NOT thinking or talking about race for decades is what got us here. To a boiling point, to a reckoning. Its needed.

And look, I don't even blame white parents in the 70s and 80s for teaching their kids that all people are just people, we should not see color, etc. They were reacting to watching the horrors of the Civil Rights movement in the 60s when they were just kids themselves. My own parents remember the news from when they were 7,8,9,10 years old and where the nice white people who were going to do better for their kids. And in many ways they did. But progress is not linear. As you get more information (like how this actually works for black folks, perception of what color blind means in practice) you adapt, you know better so you do better. So no, its not better to "not think about race" in order to make racism in our institutions go away.

What in the history of humanity has gone away just because you ignore it?

Anonymous wrote:Any ideas for a book on the origin of Thanksgiving that doesnt contain problematic images/words/themes of the native Americans? (Or of the Pilgrims, I guess, but that seems to be less pervasive.)

Thanks!

Native Americans just voted for Trump, so I guess you can order The Art of the Deal.