OP, I find a really good wuestion fo kids is" Why do you feel that way?"

And then really listen to what they are saying.

Find out what they think they can do to improve the feelings they are having.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm dealing with this push back against family values with my 14 y.o. DS, too. Though with him its more with the issues of economic inequality and racism - one minute he sounds like a liberal and the next a conservative! I think its just what they have to do to become the independent people that they will become. Instead of arguing with him, I've found it better to gently remind him of what facts he may be missing. Staying calm and trying to have a discussion is key.

Op here. This has been my situation exactly. I thought we were having good discussions until I realized he has this other persona online. Our discussions aren’t enough to counter the content he is receiving online. I have got to figure out how to get him away from that. I just don’t know how to do this without making things worse. I’m afraid he will see me as a woman trying to control a man and make him double down on these views.

Different poster here. My son takes the position that you can both support police and try to end racism and systemic inequities. But his liberal friends tear him apart for this. Because, #ACAB. So he’s turned to conservative friends for support. And unfortunately there is more messaging going on than pro police. There is a lot of this misogynistic, racist talk.

I’m not trashing liberals. I am liberal. I’m trashing the all-or-nothing mentality out there. Life is complicated. Problems are complicated. Solutions are even more complicated. But few in social media get that.

This. It often shocks people that I am a black liberal who is not anti police, who doesn't want to abolish the police all together. There's a lot we have to be all or nothing about nowadays, racism and sexism being two of those things, but in addressing those issue we have to be careful we don't leave room for those with toxic ideologies to draw our kids in with sweet words because our kids express frustration with something anf we shut them down for fear they might be racist or sexist.

I think you should stop trying to convince him of anything. A lot of what kids say is for the purpose of rebelling against their parents, and a lot of it is because they are kids and still forming an opinion; they don't yet have the maturity for nuance. I would listen to what he says respectfully, and let him know that he is entitled to his opinion, but you feel differently, and here is why. Then, just move on. You can't control what they think. He's likely to change his mind over time (perhaps when he likes a girl that disagrees with him!), and even if he doesn't, it's still not your job to make him think like you do.

I think you have to make sure he doesn't access those websites because they are dangerous.

But I think you have to accept that your kids aren't your mini mes.

They grow into people who have thoughts of their own.

Him nt wanting girls to join his troup, is not him being antifeminist or the start of being antifeminist.

The fact that you explained him into thinking your way just means you have encouraged him to go undercover and seek out these websites.

He felt uncomfortable with the changes, and other changes. He told you what you and your husband wanted to hear, in order to avoid endless arguments about how he was wrong and antifeminist. He then went in search of people who didn't make him feel bad for his feelings about Boy Scouts and he foound support there and from that was drawn into the toxicity.

Like a cult, these groups prey on vulnerable people , they hook them by showing empathy for something very valid, and then they start filling them with lies and dangerous messages, but they don't realize it because they also get the support it feels like family.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm dealing with this push back against family values with my 14 y.o. DS, too. Though with him its more with the issues of economic inequality and racism - one minute he sounds like a liberal and the next a conservative! I think its just what they have to do to become the independent people that they will become. Instead of arguing with him, I've found it better to gently remind him of what facts he may be missing. Staying calm and trying to have a discussion is key.

Op here. This has been my situation exactly. I thought we were having good discussions until I realized he has this other persona online. Our discussions aren’t enough to counter the content he is receiving online. I have got to figure out how to get him away from that. I just don’t know how to do this without making things worse. I’m afraid he will see me as a woman trying to control a man and make him double down on these views.

Different poster here. My son takes the position that you can both support police and try to end racism and systemic inequities. But his liberal friends tear him apart for this. Because, #ACAB. So he’s turned to conservative friends for support. And unfortunately there is more messaging going on than pro police. There is a lot of this misogynistic, racist talk.

I’m not trashing liberals. I am liberal. I’m trashing the all-or-nothing mentality out there. Life is complicated. Problems are complicated. Solutions are even more complicated. But few in social media get that.

Anonymous wrote:I honestly don’t know where this came from. He was NOT raised this way...but DS(14) is completely anti-feminism and proclaims to be pro men’s rights! He thinks men are more oppressed than women, I guess. I just saw that he posted something about women also being rapists and pedophiles, so people should stop saying things like “teach your sons not to rape.” Ugh. We have discussed these issues his entire life. He should get it, but he doesn’t. He has two older sisters who are very vocal on civil rights issues. Talking isn’t getting through to him. Any other ideas to make him understand that men are not the oppressed ones, specifically white men like him? He speaks out in defense of all other marginalized groups, and is likely LGBTQ. For some reason he is strong ngly anti-feminism. Any movies that might resonate with him?

Actually, statistics on college admission disagree with you. The white male applicants are the least desirable applicants.

Does he like to read fiction? It may be worth introducing the Discworld series. Possibly start with the night watch group; Guards Guards is the first in that grouping. Engaging books, funny, heartfelt, woven lessons on general humanity, rights.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

So the entire exercise was a failure. His experience changed but not to his benefit, he got in trouble with his mother/parents when he complained about it, and it didn't improve Boy Scouts either.

Poor kid.

He did not get in trouble at all. Not even close. We had a calm and rational conversation. I simply let him know that the girls would be totally separate, and I asked him what experiences he has had that should only be available to men. This is a reasonable question. He also said that they should just do Girl Scouts. I explained to him that this would be a great solution if the two organizations were similar. I was a GS leader for several years. I explained to him, with examples, that Boy Scouts is much more robust and the Eagle has much more clout than the Gold Award in GS. I did not attack him for his views in any way. We just had a conversation. He was given an opportunity to explain his viewpoint, but he had nothing. Just wanting to keep this boys club.

He's a kid, you're his mom. You told him he was wrong. And then you expected him to give you a good argument in response?

Basically, you're explaining to him that he is responsible for the first 200 years of this country's history of white men being in power and needs to pay for it, without also noticing the past 50-70 years of white men being feminists and allies and making changes. He's pushing back against the unfairness of your viewpoint but he's just a kid and he doesn't know how to do it.

Anonymous wrote:You know he’s getting this stuff online, right. Ask him to show you where he finds his “facts” and then talk to him about it.

This. The internet is full of toxic traps for boys, especially white boys. Go through his history and see what he's been watching.

Anonymous wrote:I'm dealing with this push back against family values with my 14 y.o. DS, too. Though with him its more with the issues of economic inequality and racism - one minute he sounds like a liberal and the next a conservative! I think its just what they have to do to become the independent people that they will become. Instead of arguing with him, I've found it better to gently remind him of what facts he may be missing. Staying calm and trying to have a discussion is key.

Op here. This has been my situation exactly. I thought we were having good discussions until I realized he has this other persona online. Our discussions aren’t enough to counter the content he is receiving online. I have got to figure out how to get him away from that. I just don’t know how to do this without making things worse. I’m afraid he will see me as a woman trying to control a man and make him double down on these views.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

So the entire exercise was a failure. His experience changed but not to his benefit, he got in trouble with his mother/parents when he complained about it, and it didn't improve Boy Scouts either.

Poor kid.

He did not get in trouble at all. Not even close. We had a calm and rational conversation. I simply let him know that the girls would be totally separate, and I asked him what experiences he has had that should only be available to men. This is a reasonable question. He also said that they should just do Girl Scouts. I explained to him that this would be a great solution if the two organizations were similar. I was a GS leader for several years. I explained to him, with examples, that Boy Scouts is much more robust and the Eagle has much more clout than the Gold Award in GS. I did not attack him for his views in any way. We just had a conversation. He was given an opportunity to explain his viewpoint, but he had nothing. Just wanting to keep this boys club.

I'm dealing with this push back against family values with my 14 y.o. DS, too. Though with him its more with the issues of economic inequality and racism - one minute he sounds like a liberal and the next a conservative! I think its just what they have to do to become the independent people that they will become. Instead of arguing with him, I've found it better to gently remind him of what facts he may be missing. Staying calm and trying to have a discussion is key.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

Many summer camps are now integrated. Some troops are co-ed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

So the entire exercise was a failure. His experience changed but not to his benefit, he got in trouble with his mother/parents when he complained about it, and it didn't improve Boy Scouts either.

Poor kid.

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.