I teach a business class that involves some technical work and some writing. It's of course not as mathematically rigorous as an engineering course and not as tough or as intense in writing as a humanities course would be. But, it requires a lot of analysis, thinking on your feet, and without decent math and writing skills the students would not perform well. I've taught the same class for 15 years. Although the textbook has changed over the years and I've made small modifications to the lessons and topics, the expectations, grading, and mix of assignments has largely remained constant. So, an easy way to figure out if students are coming in less prepared is to see if I have to curve grades up more often or to a larger extent to meet the desired grading target (mine is an upper level class that is specific to a certain major, and I aim for around a 3.4 median GPA). The answer to this is a definite no. If anything, I have had to do less grade inflation over the years and I have been trying to search for ways to make the class harder without making it straight up unfair (like bringing questions out of a footnote in the textbook or in a format that we never even briefly discussed in class). Every year I have a couple of students who just should not be pursuing college at all, and every year I have some superstars. The reality is that when they go out and get a job, most of the well paying jobs don't even require a superstar intellect or stellar critical thinking skills. Most well paying jobs merely require a decent work ethic, a decent attention to detail, and decent people skills.

Anonymous wrote:This is my tenth year of being an English professor. I teach at a liberal arts college ranked in the 75-100 range on US News and yes, I have seen a difference in my students’ abilities since I began. Their writing skills have declined and there is much more of a need for what I call cookbook (or recipe) style academics — many of them seem need (and ask for) an exact, specific set of directions on assignments, much like a recipe.

I do think that AP classes contribute to this. It is a very formulaic-style of learning that does not replicate the skills that one needs to succeed in a college class. For example, this is the type of question that one would see on say, the AP Government exam: “Describe the Tenth Amendment.” This type of question, that requires nothing but memorization and recall on the part of the student, really does nothing to facilitate long-term learning or critical thinking skills.

This is exactly why many private schools no longer offer APs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are students better prepared for college now than 10-15 years ago?

No, nor do they have the same emotional maturity as students who attended even 10 years ago.

Students, even freshmen, entering 10 years ago acted and presented themselves, for the most part, as adults. Now, it is not at all uncommon to get a phone call or email from a parent of a student. Instead of dealing with issues on their own, they quickly reach out to their parents for assistance.

I now always have an 'out of office' message on my email that says I'll respond in 24 hours and have a little message about not being able to disclose student information to parents. That's how many parent emails I receive through the week. I've even had parents get mad at me and contact the dean of my department, who always sides with professors.

+1 In addition to the emails, I had a parent attend a class unannounced to determine the quality of teaching. I had another parent attend a group advising session for new majors. At first, I thought she was a non-traditional student. She wanted to pick classes, see syllabi and demanded that her son enroll in classes during specific days/times. I had to ask her to stop interrupting and allow her child to speak on his own. I felt sorry for the young man-- and he didn't need accommodations. I had a few autistic students bring their parents to individual advising meetings, which I don't think is a problem.

These issues, while annoying, don't speak directly to academic preparedness.

Not directly, but in my experience, a student who does not have the ability complete relatively simple tasks such as picking out their classes, managing their schedule, understanding a syllabus and what it is asking of them, etc. without a parent present are generally not prepared for the much higher-level demands of college-level academics.

This is my tenth year of being an English professor. I teach at a liberal arts college ranked in the 75-100 range on US News and yes, I have seen a difference in my students’ abilities since I began. Their writing skills have declined and there is much more of a need for what I call cookbook (or recipe) style academics — many of them seem need (and ask for) an exact, specific set of directions on assignments, much like a recipe.

I do think that AP classes contribute to this. It is a very formulaic-style of learning that does not replicate the skills that one needs to succeed in a college class. For example, this is the type of question that one would see on say, the AP Government exam: “Describe the Tenth Amendment.” This type of question, that requires nothing but memorization and recall on the part of the student, really does nothing to facilitate long-term learning or critical thinking skills.

Anonymous wrote:Not for writing.

They also seem to want more hand holding/ material presented to them in a very handy/dandy, formulaic way.

Could this be related to increased AP classes. Students think they are taking a "college level" class, but the constraints of HS grading policies mean that teachers need to break everything down into smaller assignments, which I see as more handholding (academically) than a typical college class and does not prepare them for doing college work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, they're really ill prepared academically and emotionally. I've been teaching college for 20 years and in the last 4 years students have gotten much more demanding.

All this AP class is not helping ?

AP classes are taught to the test. And in many schools, once the test is over they stop learning.
Kids get the message from this that the point is not knowledge/education, it is a score/grade.

NP. This is why our DC wanted to do the IB curriculum in high school instead of AP. Much more writing was required in IB than what DC's friends in AP were doing, and it seemed that the IB exams required more critical thinking (and yet more writing) than AP exams. Even in IB math courses, students have to write.

IB gets bashed on DCUM all the time by parents who have never had a kid in the curriculum. Yet we know a lot of families who say their kids were extremely well prepared for college and don't get flustered when assigned research papers etc. DC was well prepared for college by IB too. It's not perfect, but it does produce HS grads who have experience with HAVING to write a lot even if they don't love writing.

Anonymous wrote:The professors and educators are 15 years older themselves -- they aren't going to be thinking straight on this question

That’s why the professors are saying critical thinking is declining.

The professors and educators are 15 years older themselves -- they aren't going to be thinking straight on this question

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, they're really ill prepared academically and emotionally. I've been teaching college for 20 years and in the last 4 years students have gotten much more demanding.

All this AP class is not helping ?

AP classes are taught to the test. And in many schools, once the test is over they stop learning.
Kids get the message from this that the point is not knowledge/education, it is a score/grade.

Kids also get the message that because they passed an AP course they're ready for advanced courses. In my experience, they're generally (not always) ill-prepared for more advanced work along with the responsibilities that come along with managing the level of independence I expect out of students in those classes. And then I get kids pleading, crying, even threatening when their grades aren't what they expected. I've got their parents hounding me to give them another chance (or ten....) or raise their grade or give them some more time. It's awful.

The decline in writing ability is an obvious side effect of No Child Left Behind and the ensuing testing regime. All that effort on multiple choice tests leaves little time for writing.

Anonymous wrote:Are students in general worse prepared than they used to be? Of course. A greater percentage go than used to, so the answer is yes almost by definition.

Are students more annoying now than they used to be? The anecdotal evidence strongly points to yes.

Are students at a given quality school (say, Harvard or UVA) less prepared than they used to be? That's harder to answer. There is good evidence that even at one of these schools, writing ability of entering freshmen has declined: placement in Harvard's Expos 10 (remedial freshman writing) has been increasing recently: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/2/10/expos-10-writing-students/

I will bet that most of the profs whining in the thread have been humanities professors faced with the above fact. I haven't, however, been able to figure out if this is also true of math.

I'm one of the whiny humanities professors that posted earlier. I can't speak directly about math, but I am friends with CS and engineering faculty that express similar concerns about critical thinking and problem-solving skills. From my understanding, students have the necessary math skills, but many are unable to think outside the box. Again, this is not an issue at top programs.

Are students in general worse prepared than they used to be? Of course. A greater percentage go than used to, so the answer is yes almost by definition.

Are students more annoying now than they used to be? The anecdotal evidence strongly points to yes.

Are students at a given quality school (say, Harvard or UVA) less prepared than they used to be? That's harder to answer. There is good evidence that even at one of these schools, writing ability of entering freshmen has declined: placement in Harvard's Expos 10 (remedial freshman writing) has been increasing recently: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/2/10/expos-10-writing-students/

I will bet that most of the profs whining in the thread have been humanities professors faced with the above fact. I haven't, however, been able to figure out if this is also true of math.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are students better prepared for college now than 10-15 years ago?

No, nor do they have the same emotional maturity as students who attended even 10 years ago.

Students, even freshmen, entering 10 years ago acted and presented themselves, for the most part, as adults. Now, it is not at all uncommon to get a phone call or email from a parent of a student. Instead of dealing with issues on their own, they quickly reach out to their parents for assistance.

I now always have an 'out of office' message on my email that says I'll respond in 24 hours and have a little message about not being able to disclose student information to parents. That's how many parent emails I receive through the week. I've even had parents get mad at me and contact the dean of my department, who always sides with professors.

+1 In addition to the emails, I had a parent attend a class unannounced to determine the quality of teaching. I had another parent attend a group advising session for new majors. At first, I thought she was a non-traditional student. She wanted to pick classes, see syllabi and demanded that her son enroll in classes during specific days/times. I had to ask her to stop interrupting and allow her child to speak on his own. I felt sorry for the young man-- and he didn't need accommodations. I had a few autistic students bring their parents to individual advising meetings, which I don't think is a problem.

These issues, while annoying, don't speak directly to academic preparedness.

I would argue it does as academic preparedness includes being able to choose classes, manage your classwork, schedule, etc. without your parents looking over your shoulder. These are skills necessary to do well in college.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The question was if students are better prepared for college not if colleges are more rigorous.

It would be strange if better prepared students were getting a less rigorous curriculum and vice versa. Those variables are not independent.

But we are not talking about better-prepared students. We are discussing students that are not prepared because of their K-12 education. That is what the OP asked. I am a college professor that has taught at a top 10 STEM university, a top 20 university, a SLAC and I now teach at a Tier 1 Public. I would argue that many students over the last 20 years are not prepared for a rigorous curriculum. Most U.S. students are not prepared for a standard college curriculum. Many students haven't learned how to write, go beyond rote thinking and develop problem-solving skills needed to navigate the demands of a college student.

In your opinion, has it gotten worse continously over 20 years, or have students just not been prepared for all of the last 20 years?

If continuously, have you observed any inflection points, or is it just steady downhill?

Lastly, surely not everything has gotten worse. Can you name anything that's gotten better?

ALso, what general field are you in, crankypants?

I don't think I'm cranky, lol. Just reporting what I have experienced. I'm a technology historian (BS stem/MA social science/PhD humanities). I primarily teach STEM and social science students.

I think it has gotten continuously worse over the last 20 years but have noticed a precipitous decline in the last 10 years--especially lack of problem-solving skills and need for handholding. Writing has been an issue for years, however, most students in Top 20 schools are good writers (in my experience). At my current state flagship, I would say 20-30% of students I teach are good or excellent writers. The majority are adequate and about 25% are terrible writers.

What has gotten better? More students are interdisciplinary and competent in both the sciences and humanities. They are more engaged in the classroom, e.g., discussions and embrace different forms of learning.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are students better prepared for college now than 10-15 years ago?

No, nor do they have the same emotional maturity as students who attended even 10 years ago.

Students, even freshmen, entering 10 years ago acted and presented themselves, for the most part, as adults. Now, it is not at all uncommon to get a phone call or email from a parent of a student. Instead of dealing with issues on their own, they quickly reach out to their parents for assistance.

I now always have an 'out of office' message on my email that says I'll respond in 24 hours and have a little message about not being able to disclose student information to parents. That's how many parent emails I receive through the week. I've even had parents get mad at me and contact the dean of my department, who always sides with professors.

+1 In addition to the emails, I had a parent attend a class unannounced to determine the quality of teaching. I had another parent attend a group advising session for new majors. At first, I thought she was a non-traditional student. She wanted to pick classes, see syllabi and demanded that her son enroll in classes during specific days/times. I had to ask her to stop interrupting and allow her child to speak on his own. I felt sorry for the young man-- and he didn't need accommodations. I had a few autistic students bring their parents to individual advising meetings, which I don't think is a problem.

These issues, while annoying, don't speak directly to academic preparedness.