Anonymous wrote:We are very interested in liberal arts college for our DS who is planning to major in CS. When I visited websites of these colleges, even the best LAC like Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore colleges have very small number of faculty (5-10).
Swarthmore college even has a cap on the number of courses that a student can take in a major. Course offerings are very limited. I wonder if LAC is a good choice for CS major. We are interested in LAC as we feel small size college environment might fit our DS better, but we also want the college to be able to teach high level CS courses...

This is like asking how I can get a nice burger from a fine French restaurant. Why do you go ask for something you know they are not best at making?

The NCES "College Navigator" can show you how many students at a given college are majoring in CS.

Look at "Programs/Majors".
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?id=202523#programs

Carleton had 56 CS majors in the 2018 graduating class: a very large amount for a LAC, at least compared to East Coast and Southern ones I had looked at previously.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Carleton&s=all&id=173258#programs

Swarthmore had 54 CS majors, also very high for a LAC.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Swarthmore&s=all&id=216287#programs

Williams had 45 majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=williams&s=all&id=168342#programs

Grinnell had 37 CS majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=grinnell&s=all&id=153384#programs

Colgate had 36 CS majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=colgate&s=all&id=190099#programs

Middlebury had 30 CS majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=middlebury&s=all&id=230959#programs

Bowdoin had 29 CS majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=bowdoin&s=all&id=161004#programs

Barnard had 19 CS majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=barnard&s=all&id=189097#programs

Denison had 17 CS majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=denison&s=all&id=202523

Oberlin had 17
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=oberlin&s=all&id=204501#programs

Colby had 11 CS majors
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=colby&s=all&id=161086#programs

Goucher had 5
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=goucher&s=all&id=162654#programs

Pitzer had 3
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=pitzer&s=all&id=121257#programs

Ohio Wesleyan had 3
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=ohio+wesleyan&s=all&id=204909#programs

Davidson had 1 CS major, so unless I knew otherwise (perhaps that there were a ton of CS minors, or that some CS majors were classified as engineering or math in their stats), I wouldn't send a student there as a prospective CS major.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Davidson&s=all&id=198385#programs

Kenyon lists Scientific Computing as a major, but doesn't list any grads with that major in NCES, so I'd ask questions.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=kenyon&s=all&id=203535#programs


My student is at a medium-sized school majoring in something where there are only 9 other majors a year, but it's not a large major at any college (or it's folded into a related STEM department), there are plenty of upper-level courses offered, and a good number of students minoring in it. So I'm not concerned about his access to classes or resources.

But for CS at a LAC, I might rule out any LAC with just a few CS majors, and check into those with 10-15 and up, with a focus on if all the courses are offered every year, if all the courses your student might want to take are currently offered, and whether students have difficulty getting into upper-level classes. For the schools with 25-30 and up, same thing, and compare to the ones with 10-15 and up.

Look at post #26 in this College Confidential thread (a few years old) to see what to look for in LAC CS departments, to see if they have classes in specific areas: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/math-computer-science-majors/1814245-computer-science-at-some-smaller-schools-including-liberal-arts-colleges.html

*Ohio Wesleyan, Oberlin, and Denison *all* have good CS departments.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:09:21 here. That was not my DC's experience at all.

09:21, can you describe your DC's recruiting experience? Just wondering. I hear both sides, the school doesn't matter vs does matter. I have a high school junior considering CS.

The PP above who commented that it's about skills is correct. My DC's LAC has a very strong career center and alumni network. It's true that the Big Four (Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple) recruit at her LAC campus, but it's also true that she made good use of the career center by connecting with alumni, friends of professors, etc. She got help with her resume, with practice interviews, etc. She also had two great (well-paid) internships during her college years.

She spent a lot of time during the summers and breaks practicing her technical skills, because she wanted to do software development - and all of those positions require pre-screening coding and development interviews. By the time recruitment season rolled around, she was very prepared, and did very well. She passed all of her technical screenings, and had a number of on-site interviews (maybe 8? 9? don't recall) and ultimately had several excellent job offers to choose from.

She does some technical writing for her job and is told that relative to her peers (who had a more technical education), she excels at that.

She's very happy that she took the LAC route.

Will you tell us which LAC your daughter attended? Thank you!

I would rather not "out" her, but it's one of the Ohio LACs.

Ohio Wesleyan, Oberlin, and Denison both have good computer science departments.

Swarthmore does as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me the appeal of a LAC is for humanities courses where small class discussions are beneficial. In my experience, this isn't as much of a need in STEM courses, so no need for a LAC to study STEM. There are STEM oriented small schools, e.g. Harvey Mudd. OP you might expand your search to mid-size uni's or smaller state schools if the huge ones seem overwhelming for your DC.

So, a while ago, I started a thread on the percentage of STEM graduates at various elite schools. Much to my shock--not really--i found that my alma mater Carleton had nearly the highest % STEM (even without an engineering program) except for specialized STEM elites like MIT, Mudd, and Caltech. This seems to be more of a Midwest LAC phenomenon than nationwide. Sorry, but I don't think PP knows what he/she is talking about..

Question is what do they go on to do. An academic told me they know relatively few practicing academics in their field with LAC undergrad degrees. Not sure why that is.

For Carleton (NP, parent of a current student) you can get a sense from this page and reports. The visualization linked to from here is pretty interesting. https://apps.carleton.edu/campus/ira/outcomes/

Most people don’t wind up in or pursue a life in academia. There just aren’t enough positions compared to the private sector.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My company used to hire fresh graduates with almost zero CS knowledge, and eventually they would learn to programming. So it is not really a big issue for cs major from liberal arts colleges if they have some software experience.

Used to? Not any more? Wonder why...

They still do so to a less extend, but they also import lot of people from India.

What a shame. Lots of good college graduates seeking work here.

Foreign workers are cheaper and don't act entitled. And more skilled.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me the appeal of a LAC is for humanities courses where small class discussions are beneficial. In my experience, this isn't as much of a need in STEM courses, so no need for a LAC to study STEM. There are STEM oriented small schools, e.g. Harvey Mudd. OP you might expand your search to mid-size uni's or smaller state schools if the huge ones seem overwhelming for your DC.

So, a while ago, I started a thread on the percentage of STEM graduates at various elite schools. Much to my shock--not really--i found that my alma mater Carleton had nearly the highest % STEM (even without an engineering program) except for specialized STEM elites like MIT, Mudd, and Caltech. This seems to be more of a Midwest LAC phenomenon than nationwide. Sorry, but I don't think PP knows what he/she is talking about..

Question is what do they go on to do. An academic told me they know relatively few practicing academics in their field with LAC undergrad degrees. Not sure why that is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My company used to hire fresh graduates with almost zero CS knowledge, and eventually they would learn to programming. So it is not really a big issue for cs major from liberal arts colleges if they have some software experience.

Used to? Not any more? Wonder why...

They still do so to a less extend, but they also import lot of people from India.

What a shame. Lots of good college graduates seeking work here.

Anonymous wrote:For me the appeal of a LAC is for humanities courses where small class discussions are beneficial. In my experience, this isn't as much of a need in STEM courses, so no need for a LAC to study STEM. There are STEM oriented small schools, e.g. Harvey Mudd. OP you might expand your search to mid-size uni's or smaller state schools if the huge ones seem overwhelming for your DC.

So, a while ago, I started a thread on the percentage of STEM graduates at various elite schools. Much to my shock--not really--i found that my alma mater Carleton had nearly the highest % STEM (even without an engineering program) except for specialized STEM elites like MIT, Mudd, and Caltech. This seems to be more of a Midwest LAC phenomenon than nationwide. Sorry, but I don't think PP knows what he/she is talking about..

Anonymous wrote:For me the appeal of a LAC is for humanities courses where small class discussions are beneficial. In my experience, this isn't as much of a need in STEM courses, so no need for a LAC to study STEM. There are STEM oriented small schools, e.g. Harvey Mudd. OP you might expand your search to mid-size uni's or smaller state schools if the huge ones seem overwhelming for your DC.

LACs tend to produce a disproportionate number of STEM PhDs, though. It could be because LAC students may get to work closer with professors.

Regarding computer science, there are many more positions than there are students. This is why the U.S. is so heavily dependent on India for developers. I work in software product management and my impression is computer science majors often transition into the business side for career advancement. Being well-rounded can help in this transition.

For me the appeal of a LAC is for humanities courses where small class discussions are beneficial. In my experience, this isn't as much of a need in STEM courses, so no need for a LAC to study STEM. There are STEM oriented small schools, e.g. Harvey Mudd. OP you might expand your search to mid-size uni's or smaller state schools if the huge ones seem overwhelming for your DC.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:09:21 here. That was not my DC's experience at all.

09:21, can you describe your DC's recruiting experience? Just wondering. I hear both sides, the school doesn't matter vs does matter. I have a high school junior considering CS.

The PP above who commented that it's about skills is correct. My DC's LAC has a very strong career center and alumni network. It's true that the Big Four (Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple) recruit at her LAC campus, but it's also true that she made good use of the career center by connecting with alumni, friends of professors, etc. She got help with her resume, with practice interviews, etc. She also had two great (well-paid) internships during her college years.

She spent a lot of time during the summers and breaks practicing her technical skills, because she wanted to do software development - and all of those positions require pre-screening coding and development interviews. By the time recruitment season rolled around, she was very prepared, and did very well. She passed all of her technical screenings, and had a number of on-site interviews (maybe 8? 9? don't recall) and ultimately had several excellent job offers to choose from.

She does some technical writing for her job and is told that relative to her peers (who had a more technical education), she excels at that.

She's very happy that she took the LAC route.

Will you tell us which LAC your daughter attended? Thank you!

Expand your search to include more liberal arts college. Carleton is an example. The faculty is twice what is described above and there seem to be a lot of courses offered. I do not work in the field and can’t speak to the quality. But at a minimum there seems to be more investment in that discipline. https://www.carleton.edu/computer-science/faculty/

Finally some colleges produce outcomes reports that show what industry graduates with X major are working in 5 years later. Your student should ask for a copy or link to one, assuming it exists.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My company used to hire fresh graduates with almost zero CS knowledge, and eventually they would learn to programming. So it is not really a big issue for cs major from liberal arts colleges if they have some software experience.

Used to? Not any more? Wonder why...

They still do so to a less extend, but they also import lot of people from India.

Anonymous wrote:My company used to hire fresh graduates with almost zero CS knowledge, and eventually they would learn to programming. So it is not really a big issue for cs major from liberal arts colleges if they have some software experience.

Used to? Not any more? Wonder why...