Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 13:51     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:Op here. Got a few ideas from this thread. She is very unhappy and she contacted me again and my daughter. This is escalating quickly.

The good news is my brother and SIL are looking into counseling and are rethinking things and allowing her to explore her heritage more. She is struggling in school too so they understand pushing Bat Mitzvah tutoring is adding to the stress. I am glad they both are open to listening to her more and they do truly care.My brother's whole tone has changed and is he feels bad that things have gotten to this point.

Feel free to continue the discussion if you like. I probably won't be popping in much more.


There sounds a lot more to this and it doesn't sound like this is a culture or heritage issue but an academic issue if she is struggling at school and tutoring. She's overwhelmed academically and that has nothing to do with a Bat Mitzvah. Instead of counseling they should do academic testing and address the real problem. If she's struggling that much, she may need academic tutors or easier classes. It sounds liked they have done a lot to keep up her culture. At that age its normal to question your identity but that doesn't sound like this is the situation and it sounds like its an academic issue.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 13:49     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was also wondering the same. Why mention that the kid is adopted, what does this have to do with bat mitzvah


When you go through the adoption process the social worker wants to make sure you will preserve the child's cultural identity as much as possible. The child's culture is supposed to supersede the parent's.

But one can be both Chinese—the ethnicity—and Jewish—the religion.

This is an honest question: would a Jewish family who adopts a child whose bio parents are Catholic have to give their child a Catholic education?


Jewish is a cultural identity and ethnicity. If you get DNA testing and have Jewish roots they will show up, whereas Catholic roots don't show up. Yes, a child can be Chinese and Jewish, but if a child identifies more as Chinese and doesn't relate as much to Jewish culture, many would argue Chinese should be first and foremost. This goes of course for anything...Latin American, African.



Correct but this child was adopted and probably went through a conversion at the time so the child is both. Its no different than a family raising a child in Christianity or another religion when it wasn't their birth parents religion or culture.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 13:46     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Op here. Got a few ideas from this thread. She is very unhappy and she contacted me again and my daughter. This is escalating quickly.

The good news is my brother and SIL are looking into counseling and are rethinking things and allowing her to explore her heritage more. She is struggling in school too so they understand pushing Bat Mitzvah tutoring is adding to the stress. I am glad they both are open to listening to her more and they do truly care.My brother's whole tone has changed and is he feels bad that things have gotten to this point.

Feel free to continue the discussion if you like. I probably won't be popping in much more.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 12:57     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
She is their daughter, not their adopted daughter. Adoption is how she joined the family, it should define her role in the family. Many kids have religion forced on them. This isn't a race or adoption issue, but its important to the parents. Tell her to do it for the gifts.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 12:45     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
What have the parents done to raise this child as a jew? Is the child comfortable in shul? Does the child know the prayers? Does she feel a part of the jewish community?

A lot of parents force their child through bar/bat mitzvahs. They did it and their children will do it as well. The thing is that becoming a bar/bat mitzvah means you get to take your place in the community. It's weird if you've not really been a part of that community in the first place.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 12:35     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My brother and SIL fully admit they are forcing their daughter from Asia to have a Bat Mitzvah even though there is no family pressure on either side to have one. The daughter makes it very clear she doesn't want it. I should also note they have both been great about making sure their daughter learns about her own culture too. They have taken her to events, signed her up for cultural groups and activities, encouraged friendships. However, chances are she is not a member of the very small sect of Chinese Jews in China so I just don't understand pushing an agenda she doesn't want. She has complained to me and they have complained about how they basically are bribing her to do it. I did suggest it may be helpful to find a family therapist savvy to these issues with adoption to sort this out. I am not an expert, but I don't see the point in forcing this even on a child who was born into a Jewish family. We didn't make our own kids do it.



So, OP, it sounds like you don't think your niece is Jewish. I know you think you are advocating for her, but I would tread very lightly because all the information you have presented here screams that you see her as different because she is not a blood relative, and that the only way she could be Jewish is if her birth parents were. Is it possible that she doesn't want a Bat Mitzvah celebration because she's constantly made to feel like an outsider?



OP responding. I didn't force my own kids to have it. I don't believe in forcing anyone to do these things, but yes, if she is not of Jewish descent and she prefers her own culture, then I do not think it is fair to impose a different culture on her.


I am confused: was she raised going to synagogue and observing high holidays in addition to other celebrations like Purim? If so, she was raised in the Jewish faith and culture. She is Jewish. I guess your family forced her into a different culture when they adopted her at birth? She is racially Chinese but she was raised Jewish. If you take her Judiasm from her, you get that she is not ethnically Chinese. Her Hebrew is better than her Mandarin or whatever dialect of the region she was adopted from. I feel terrible for her. It sounds like you and your family are not equipped for trans-racial adoption.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 12:28     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My brother and SIL fully admit they are forcing their daughter from Asia to have a Bat Mitzvah even though there is no family pressure on either side to have one. The daughter makes it very clear she doesn't want it. I should also note they have both been great about making sure their daughter learns about her own culture too. They have taken her to events, signed her up for cultural groups and activities, encouraged friendships. However, chances are she is not a member of the very small sect of Chinese Jews in China so I just don't understand pushing an agenda she doesn't want. She has complained to me and they have complained about how they basically are bribing her to do it. I did suggest it may be helpful to find a family therapist savvy to these issues with adoption to sort this out. I am not an expert, but I don't see the point in forcing this even on a child who was born into a Jewish family. We didn't make our own kids do it.



So, OP, it sounds like you don't think your niece is Jewish. I know you think you are advocating for her, but I would tread very lightly because all the information you have presented here screams that you see her as different because she is not a blood relative, and that the only way she could be Jewish is if her birth parents were. Is it possible that she doesn't want a Bat Mitzvah celebration because she's constantly made to feel like an outsider?



OP responding. I didn't force my own kids to have it. I don't believe in forcing anyone to do these things, but yes, if she is not of Jewish descent and she prefers her own culture, then I do not think it is fair to impose a different culture on her.

I agree with this to a point. My question is: what religious education has been leading up to the bat mitzvah struggle? Have the parents made Judaism a part of her life from the adoption, or is this something they’re springing on her as they realize it’s prep time? She doesn’t have to have Jewish blood or be “of Jewish descent” to be a Jew, but if she doesn’t see Judaism as part of “her own culture,” there are family dynamics contributing to this idea.


This is the original PP again. Agree. OP, you are still speaking with very much a "She's not even in our club" tone. I know two girls adopted from China who very much consider Judaism to be "their culture". It sickens me when other Jews think of converts as "less than", and you are very close to that line.

If you want to support her decision to not participate in B'nai Mitzvah, then simply say you believe it is something children should choose for themselves. That is how it is in our home. One child chose yes; the other child will likely choose no. Don't add to that your ideas about her "own culture". I understand that she looks different than the rest of your family, but she still shares "culture" with you. Culture is more complicated than race.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 12:06     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Say you had one bio kid and one adopted kid and both were resisting the idea of a bat mitzvah. If you were to force it one one and not the other that would seem pretty shitty to all involved.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 11:54     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:Is this her family or not? If so, they get to “force” her to participate in their religious traditions until she is old enough to refuse to do things. That age varies in every family.

The family does have a moral obligation to identify possible prejudice in the community and stand up for their child.


Obviously, if a religious tradition is harmful it’s a different story. But that’s goes for any child, adopted or not.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 11:53     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Is this her family or not? If so, they get to “force” her to participate in their religious traditions until she is old enough to refuse to do things. That age varies in every family.

The family does have a moral obligation to identify possible prejudice in the community and stand up for their child.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 11:20     Subject: Re:Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
OP, you didn't "force" your children to participate in this family, religious and cultural ritual, but surely you know that many parents do -- as several other posters have noted. You probably have friends who've done exactly that -- did you challenge their choice to do so? Perhaps this difference in parenting styles is more threatening to you since family are involved, but you're going well beyond what would be appropriate for a loving aunt and sister or SIL to do. You've empathized with your niece and raised the issue with her parents. Now you're using her adoptee status as a way to drive a wedge into her relationship with her parents. Can you not simply let this go as a difference of opinion among reasonable and loving people? Get your niece a nice gift and say mazel tov already.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 11:02     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was also wondering the same. Why mention that the kid is adopted, what does this have to do with bat mitzvah


When you go through the adoption process the social worker wants to make sure you will preserve the child's cultural identity as much as possible. The child's culture is supposed to supersede the parent's.

That never happens
An adopted child belongs to the family that adopted. You do not get a foreign child, the child is your very own

There is no way to preserve a cultural identity that you have never been part of. You could have awareness of the culture.


Uh no, you absolutely are expected to honor the child's culture as part of their upbringing. There is a difference between exposing them to your belief system and forcing this on them. The child is not a prize you bought. It is a human you have the privilege of raising. That human has many needs.

No wonder in the African American community there is so much controversy over the idea of a white person raising a black child. You are not purchasing a doll that you program. Kids need to be around others who look like them. They need to learn about the culture of origin.

Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 10:18     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Perhaps you are interpreting it wrong. All kids change their minds
Sometimes they want, some days they do


Got it. OP is confused about hearing the girl say she doesn’t want a bat mitzva. The girl is confused about saying she doesn’t want it. The only people who have clear heads in this situation are the parents who truly understand that when their daughter says no, she actually means yes. Everyone else misunderstood.


New poster. I believe the reference to misinterpretation is about the word “forcing.” Many adolescents have to be coerced to a certain extent to perform the daily activities of life. I think OP would benefit from knowing how many kids were coerced and bribed through Bat Mitzvah practice (including me). It’s hard work.[/quote]


Any you think this is a good thing?
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 09:45     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was also wondering the same. Why mention that the kid is adopted, what does this have to do with bat mitzvah


When you go through the adoption process the social worker wants to make sure you will preserve the child's cultural identity as much as possible. The child's culture is supposed to supersede the parent's.

But one can be both Chinese—the ethnicity—and Jewish—the religion.

This is an honest question: would a Jewish family who adopts a child whose bio parents are Catholic have to give their child a Catholic education?


Jewish is a cultural identity and ethnicity. If you get DNA testing and have Jewish roots they will show up, whereas Catholic roots don't show up. Yes, a child can be Chinese and Jewish, but if a child identifies more as Chinese and doesn't relate as much to Jewish culture, many would argue Chinese should be first and foremost. This goes of course for anything...Latin American, African.


There’s a big controversy in stating that there’s Jewish DNA—it reeks of eugenics, which we’re not so fond of.

This argument leaves aside the facts that (1) converts with no Jews in their family history are absolutely still Jewish, and (2) there are Chinese Jews.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2019 09:36     Subject: Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was also wondering the same. Why mention that the kid is adopted, what does this have to do with bat mitzvah


When you go through the adoption process the social worker wants to make sure you will preserve the child's cultural identity as much as possible. The child's culture is supposed to supersede the parent's.

But one can be both Chinese—the ethnicity—and Jewish—the religion.

This is an honest question: would a Jewish family who adopts a child whose bio parents are Catholic have to give their child a Catholic education?


Jewish is a cultural identity and ethnicity. If you get DNA testing and have Jewish roots they will show up, whereas Catholic roots don't show up. Yes, a child can be Chinese and Jewish, but if a child identifies more as Chinese and doesn't relate as much to Jewish culture, many would argue Chinese should be first and foremost. This goes of course for anything...Latin American, African.