Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of the hospital “professional” who knew nothing about what can happen to women after an epidural and kept my NEWBORN from me for something like two hours presuming I was a drug addict. What has she done to less privileged women?! Necessary reading...

https://www.vox.com/2019/6/10/18628073/maternal-mistreatment-women-of-color

Non-maternity patients are treated just as badly.

+1

True. But arguably, the loss or injury of a newborn or childbearing mother has a much larger impact on society. That's why we take maternal mortality as such a damning metric: we have ALL the money and tech in the world, yet we can't even do whatever it takes for moms and babies to stay healthy?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of the hospital “professional” who knew nothing about what can happen to women after an epidural and kept my NEWBORN from me for something like two hours presuming I was a drug addict. What has she done to less privileged women?! Necessary reading...

https://www.vox.com/2019/6/10/18628073/maternal-mistreatment-women-of-color

Non-maternity patients are treated just as badly.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everyone needs to listen to the experience of Black maternal mistreatment. Not just when you're also allowed to chime in. We need to understand this to our core and fight for better care for THEM. As a consequence, care for all mothers will improve. But if you insist on doing it the other way around, the disparity will still remain for Black mothers. Unfortunately, in reality women's rights only improve when White women complain.

I'm still not sure what your point is? Although Black women face additional barriers due to race, there are absolutely common issues in maternity care. Do you think white women should not take any action or voice any opinion at all, thereby not improving things for anyone? Seriously, what is your theory of change here?

[I'm the poster you're quoting, but not the PP that first asked white women to listen]

I think we (non-Black women) need to beat the drums about the poor care of Black mothers. Make that the narrative. When we advocate for better care for Black mothers, we can address both the issues of mothers being dismissed AND the racial disparities Black mothers face in health care. So everyone wins. The alternative, which is the status quo, is that white women will only complain because it affects them personally. So the change is solely for their benefit, and the racial disparity aspect is overlooked.

-signed: South Asian-American woman who works in public health and whose concerns were dismissed during childbirth to her and her baby's detriment

Ok sure - but the problem is that the proven way to reduce maternal mortality is UNIFORM standards of care in hospitals (such as in California, where a standardized response & training to common childbirth issues has reduced maternal mortality). Focusing on Black women only seems to suggest that they are different medically, which I do not think is the case, and in fact runs counter to other current critiques on race and medicine. Obviously we need to advocate for equal access to quality healthcare, but the "narrative" can't be that only black women need these improvements. (Because at a minimum that also ignores Latina and indigenous women ... )

California's approach: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/29/632702896/to-keep-women-from-dying-in-childbirth-look-to-california
Race in medical research: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/02/05/465616472/is-it-time-to-stop-using-race-in-medical-research

And I just want to clarify: I don't at ALL mean that there are not race-specific issues with health care. I'm extremely clear that there are. What I object to is the hyper-liberal "shut up and be an ally and don't dare talk about white women" thing (generally enforced by non-black women on white women). Because especially when it comes to maternal mortality and childbirth, there are a LOT of common issues. It's just uninformed to claim that, say, a white woman advocating for a California-type universal improvements approach or discussing your own personal near-miss is somehow being racist.

Thanks for sharing those articles. I agree mostly with what your saying. The part I disagree with is that asking white women to listen for once is not accusing them of being racist. I don't think it's intentional or malicious.

Anonymous wrote:Note that the article deals with perceived mistreatment bias based on race, not objectively demonstrated bias based on race. Whatever a woman's race she should get proper treatment, and diverting the discussion from treatment to perceived racial inequities not backed up by objective evidence does no one a service.

well, the entire article is about perceived mistreatment, so there's nothing objective about this particular study at all, race aside.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everyone needs to listen to the experience of Black maternal mistreatment. Not just when you're also allowed to chime in. We need to understand this to our core and fight for better care for THEM. As a consequence, care for all mothers will improve. But if you insist on doing it the other way around, the disparity will still remain for Black mothers. Unfortunately, in reality women's rights only improve when White women complain.

I'm still not sure what your point is? Although Black women face additional barriers due to race, there are absolutely common issues in maternity care. Do you think white women should not take any action or voice any opinion at all, thereby not improving things for anyone? Seriously, what is your theory of change here?

[I'm the poster you're quoting, but not the PP that first asked white women to listen]

I think we (non-Black women) need to beat the drums about the poor care of Black mothers. Make that the narrative. When we advocate for better care for Black mothers, we can address both the issues of mothers being dismissed AND the racial disparities Black mothers face in health care. So everyone wins. The alternative, which is the status quo, is that white women will only complain because it affects them personally. So the change is solely for their benefit, and the racial disparity aspect is overlooked.

-signed: South Asian-American woman who works in public health and whose concerns were dismissed during childbirth to her and her baby's detriment

Ok sure - but the problem is that the proven way to reduce maternal mortality is UNIFORM standards of care in hospitals (such as in California, where a standardized response & training to common childbirth issues has reduced maternal mortality). Focusing on Black women only seems to suggest that they are different medically, which I do not think is the case, and in fact runs counter to other current critiques on race and medicine. Obviously we need to advocate for equal access to quality healthcare, but the "narrative" can't be that only black women need these improvements. (Because at a minimum that also ignores Latina and indigenous women ... )

California's approach: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/29/632702896/to-keep-women-from-dying-in-childbirth-look-to-california
Race in medical research: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/02/05/465616472/is-it-time-to-stop-using-race-in-medical-research

And I just want to clarify: I don't at ALL mean that there are not race-specific issues with health care. I'm extremely clear that there are. What I object to is the hyper-liberal "shut up and be an ally and don't dare talk about white women" thing (generally enforced by non-black women on white women). Because especially when it comes to maternal mortality and childbirth, there are a LOT of common issues. It's just uninformed to claim that, say, a white woman advocating for a California-type universal improvements approach or discussing your own personal near-miss is somehow being racist.

Note that the article deals with perceived mistreatment bias based on race, not objectively demonstrated bias based on race. Whatever a woman's race she should get proper treatment, and diverting the discussion from treatment to perceived racial inequities not backed up by objective evidence does no one a service.

Anonymous wrote:Thinking of the hospital “professional” who knew nothing about what can happen to women after an epidural and kept my NEWBORN from me for something like two hours presuming I was a drug addict. What has she done to less privileged women?! Necessary reading...

https://www.vox.com/2019/6/10/18628073/maternal-mistreatment-women-of-color

Non-maternity patients are treated just as badly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everyone needs to listen to the experience of Black maternal mistreatment. Not just when you're also allowed to chime in. We need to understand this to our core and fight for better care for THEM. As a consequence, care for all mothers will improve. But if you insist on doing it the other way around, the disparity will still remain for Black mothers. Unfortunately, in reality women's rights only improve when White women complain.

I'm still not sure what your point is? Although Black women face additional barriers due to race, there are absolutely common issues in maternity care. Do you think white women should not take any action or voice any opinion at all, thereby not improving things for anyone? Seriously, what is your theory of change here?

[I'm the poster you're quoting, but not the PP that first asked white women to listen]

I think we (non-Black women) need to beat the drums about the poor care of Black mothers. Make that the narrative. When we advocate for better care for Black mothers, we can address both the issues of mothers being dismissed AND the racial disparities Black mothers face in health care. So everyone wins. The alternative, which is the status quo, is that white women will only complain because it affects them personally. So the change is solely for their benefit, and the racial disparity aspect is overlooked.

-signed: South Asian-American woman who works in public health and whose concerns were dismissed during childbirth to her and her baby's detriment

Ok sure - but the problem is that the proven way to reduce maternal mortality is UNIFORM standards of care in hospitals (such as in California, where a standardized response & training to common childbirth issues has reduced maternal mortality). Focusing on Black women only seems to suggest that they are different medically, which I do not think is the case, and in fact runs counter to other current critiques on race and medicine. Obviously we need to advocate for equal access to quality healthcare, but the "narrative" can't be that only black women need these improvements. (Because at a minimum that also ignores Latina and indigenous women ... )

California's approach: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/29/632702896/to-keep-women-from-dying-in-childbirth-look-to-california
Race in medical research: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/02/05/465616472/is-it-time-to-stop-using-race-in-medical-research

Anonymous wrote:And people wonder why there has been a resurgence in planned home births! I'm ashamed for my own country when it comes to maternity care.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everyone needs to listen to the experience of Black maternal mistreatment. Not just when you're also allowed to chime in. We need to understand this to our core and fight for better care for THEM. As a consequence, care for all mothers will improve. But if you insist on doing it the other way around, the disparity will still remain for Black mothers. Unfortunately, in reality women's rights only improve when White women complain.

I'm still not sure what your point is? Although Black women face additional barriers due to race, there are absolutely common issues in maternity care. Do you think white women should not take any action or voice any opinion at all, thereby not improving things for anyone? Seriously, what is your theory of change here?

[I'm the poster you're quoting, but not the PP that first asked white women to listen]

I think we (non-Black women) need to beat the drums about the poor care of Black mothers. Make that the narrative. When we advocate for better care for Black mothers, we can address both the issues of mothers being dismissed AND the racial disparities Black mothers face in health care. So everyone wins. The alternative, which is the status quo, is that white women will only complain because it affects them personally. So the change is solely for their benefit, and the racial disparity aspect is overlooked.

-signed: South Asian-American woman who works in public health and whose concerns were dismissed during childbirth to her and her baby's detriment

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a Black woman. But this message is to white women on how to be allies: just listen. Don’t chime in with your story of mistreatment.

Yes, it’s happening to women who aren’t WOC — but it’s far more prevalent, more systemic, more painful within communities of color, compounded by a frighteningly high mortality rate among Black moms regardless of income, education, age, weight, etc.

Listen and share.

Listen and share, except if you are a white woman? I posted my previous story of mistreatment to help illustrate the fact that no one, regardless if you are white, rich, have support staff, can speak the language of health care providers, are a native English speaker, etc. is immune from abusive treatment. Yes, women of color are more susceptible. But we all—regardless of race—have a responsibility to speak out and use our voices to let people know this treatment is unacceptable, and to support and validate any woman who has been mistreated during birth. Don’t ever silence anyone who has been mistreated during one of the most vulnerable times of their life and is trying to raise their voice to help others. We all need to lock arms and say, this should not happen to anyone, and demand better care.

"It happened to me too" is a well-known way to derail conversations about racism.

You want to be an ally? Then be an ally.

This isn't a conversation about racism. It's a conversation about health care. Since we live in a society where there are huge disparities between races, every issue is going to have a racial aspect. So basically you're suggesting that we can't discuss public policy at all? How does that make sense?

I'm happy to be an ally and stay out of a conversation when it's clear that it's private (between black women or whatever). But this is DCUM, a general interest website.

Everyone needs to listen to the experience of Black maternal mistreatment. Not just when you're also allowed to chime in. We need to understand this to our core and fight for better care for THEM. As a consequence, care for all mothers will improve. But if you insist on doing it the other way around, the disparity will still remain for Black mothers. Unfortunately, in reality women's rights only improve when White women complain.

I'm still not sure what your point is? Although Black women face additional barriers due to race, there are absolutely common issues in maternity care. Do you think white women should not take any action or voice any opinion at all, thereby not improving things for anyone? Seriously, what is your theory of change here?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a Black woman. But this message is to white women on how to be allies: just listen. Don’t chime in with your story of mistreatment.

Yes, it’s happening to women who aren’t WOC — but it’s far more prevalent, more systemic, more painful within communities of color, compounded by a frighteningly high mortality rate among Black moms regardless of income, education, age, weight, etc.

Listen and share.

Listen and share, except if you are a white woman? I posted my previous story of mistreatment to help illustrate the fact that no one, regardless if you are white, rich, have support staff, can speak the language of health care providers, are a native English speaker, etc. is immune from abusive treatment. Yes, women of color are more susceptible. But we all—regardless of race—have a responsibility to speak out and use our voices to let people know this treatment is unacceptable, and to support and validate any woman who has been mistreated during birth. Don’t ever silence anyone who has been mistreated during one of the most vulnerable times of their life and is trying to raise their voice to help others. We all need to lock arms and say, this should not happen to anyone, and demand better care.

"It happened to me too" is a well-known way to derail conversations about racism.

You want to be an ally? Then be an ally.

This isn't a conversation about racism. It's a conversation about health care. Since we live in a society where there are huge disparities between races, every issue is going to have a racial aspect. So basically you're suggesting that we can't discuss public policy at all? How does that make sense?

I'm happy to be an ally and stay out of a conversation when it's clear that it's private (between black women or whatever). But this is DCUM, a general interest website.

Everyone needs to listen to the experience of Black maternal mistreatment. Not just when you're also allowed to chime in. We need to understand this to our core and fight for better care for THEM. As a consequence, care for all mothers will improve. But if you insist on doing it the other way around, the disparity will still remain for Black mothers. Unfortunately, in reality women's rights only improve when White women complain.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a Black woman. But this message is to white women on how to be allies: just listen. Don’t chime in with your story of mistreatment.

Yes, it’s happening to women who aren’t WOC — but it’s far more prevalent, more systemic, more painful within communities of color, compounded by a frighteningly high mortality rate among Black moms regardless of income, education, age, weight, etc.

Listen and share.

Listen and share, except if you are a white woman? I posted my previous story of mistreatment to help illustrate the fact that no one, regardless if you are white, rich, have support staff, can speak the language of health care providers, are a native English speaker, etc. is immune from abusive treatment. Yes, women of color are more susceptible. But we all—regardless of race—have a responsibility to speak out and use our voices to let people know this treatment is unacceptable, and to support and validate any woman who has been mistreated during birth. Don’t ever silence anyone who has been mistreated during one of the most vulnerable times of their life and is trying to raise their voice to help others. We all need to lock arms and say, this should not happen to anyone, and demand better care.

"It happened to me too" is a well-known way to derail conversations about racism.

You want to be an ally? Then be an ally.

This isn't a conversation about racism. It's a conversation about health care. Since we live in a society where there are huge disparities between races, every issue is going to have a racial aspect. So basically you're suggesting that we can't discuss public policy at all? How does that make sense?

I'm happy to be an ally and stay out of a conversation when it's clear that it's private (between black women or whatever). But this is DCUM, a general interest website.

So getting the conversation back on track:

I have mixed feelings about this survey. I absolutely felt dismissed by my midwives & pediatricians, to the point where I felt they put me and my kid at risk; and I also felt mistreated by the way they spoke to me.

That said, I don't think there's a correlation between bedside manner and the quality of medical care you receive. And I don't think these issues are necessarily unique to childbirth -- hospitals are sh*tshows for every kind of treatment. It's just that childbirth is often the first time a person may experience what it's like to be in the hospital or deal with a major medical issue. So I wonder how much this has to do with maternity, and how much it has to do with health care in general? And how much of this has to do with women not understanding how decisions are made in childbirth -- like the woman who insisted she was fending off the evil doctors who wanted to do a c-section for no reason?

As for the race aspect - I also wonder how much the mistreatment has to do with the type of hospital. Would a black woman who say went to Sibley (a rich, white hospital that by all accounts here is generally a good experience) have a disparity in experience compared to white women? Or is it that black & indigenous & latina women end up at worse hospitals? Obviously there's racism in both scenarios, but I think the difference matters in terms of how to solve the problem. It's interesting to note that the hospital that gets the MOST complaints on DCUM (GW) is likely also the hospital in the region with the highest %% of medicare patients.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not a Black woman. But this message is to white women on how to be allies: just listen. Don’t chime in with your story of mistreatment.

Yes, it’s happening to women who aren’t WOC — but it’s far more prevalent, more systemic, more painful within communities of color, compounded by a frighteningly high mortality rate among Black moms regardless of income, education, age, weight, etc.

Listen and share.

Sounds one sided. White people can complain too.

This article is specially about how women of color experience shocking mistreatment at a much higher rate than non-WOC. How about not making this about white women?

Serious answer: because DCUM is not a safe space. It's just not. I fully get and support the need for people to have free discussion of things that impact them specifically and for black women to have their own spaces (including online) but DCUM just isn't set up that way. Which I actually think is an OK thing. There's a place for private discussion (and "private" discussion online, even) and there's a place for the free exchange of information.