The numbers are very clear that degree holders make significantly more money over their lifetime and have much lower rates of unemployment. CC can be a good path. In my state, we have 2+2 plans that map out a student's path through a CC to a state college ensuring all credits will transfer, and sometimes students can get a provisional acceptance to the 4-year program when they start at cc. There are definitely certificate paths to in demand and high paying employment. Where I live, the challenge is that these programs tend to be oversubscribed and have waiting lists as long as 5 years (the thing no one talks about when they tell a kid to go be a plumber). Private vocational colleges that can move students through more quickly tend to be as expensive as 4-year colleges. For young people training to go into union trades, they should do some research on how the system works. Union work is well-paid, but tends to rely heavily on seniority, so as a young worker you have all the skills and credentials and get laid off a lot through no fault of your own.

DH and I had a conversation the other day with friends that roughly overlapped with the theme of this thread. We are all highly educated, advanced degrees, all went to top colleges including multiple Ivies, and the argument was that no one goes to a top college such as Harvard for the education anymore. You go for the name. Harvard or Penn or insert your favorite top college name here aren't offering a superior classroom instruction, they're offering the name. We all agreed that the quality of education at the top colleges in the humanities and social sciences have been seriously compromised in the past decade although the warning signs were already there when we were students 20 years ago. And before anyone accuses us of being Trump supporters, we're all staunch liberals, liberals who believe in free speech. And one only needs to read this college forum to see the intense obsession among many parents for a prestigious diploma, but it's *never for the education* and always for the post-graduation opportunities it might open up for the child. I don't know what the long term outcome but I won't speculate that far.

Nonetheless, like it or not, a college degree is a near requirement for advancement in today's world. It is much more difficult to achieve a middle class, let alone upper middle class, status without a college degree. It can happen, and people on this thread have pointed out examples, but if your child is capable of graduating from college, why stack the odds against him? If you want a straightforward, solid and pragmatic education, whether STEM or the liberal arts, then going the in-state route at one of the flagships is probably still a good option. And there are many specialist technical programs. If your child isn't geared for the liberal arts, look at schools like Drexel or Rochester Institute of Technology that offer many technical training tracks and have pretty good placement post-graduation.

Anonymous wrote:Op, I was thinking of the same thing especially when high quality instructions are pretty much free online nowadays. dh’s argument is that the $$ tuition is not to buy the knowledge but the college experience/connections. I’m not convinced the college experience is worth this much. If enough people are for the same route and chip-in to build their own connections, the expensive formal experience may not be necessary..

I agree with this, that it is not worth the cost for the "college experience." What a great sales/marketing load of crap that is....

Op, I was thinking of the same thing especially when high quality instructions are pretty much free online nowadays. dh’s argument is that the $$ tuition is not to buy the knowledge but the college experience/connections. I’m not convinced the college experience is worth this much. If enough people are for the same route and chip-in to build their own connections, the expensive formal experience may not be necessary..

OP, I actually posted here and on several other forums about 6 months ago or so asking about the value of a college degree in my son's preferred area of interest in sound recording/music producing. He had taken one semester at college in the SRT program, but he wasn't really enjoying the classes they way they were set up. The consensus across the all the forums was that it was more important he start getting some real hands on experience in a studio and maybe take some community college business courses. I was hesitant because I didn't think anyone really even got their resume looked at these days due to electronic filtering if they did not have a degree listed.

I did decide to let him take this semester off to pursue his passion for music. I will say, though, ever since he was very young we have been told he has very artistic and interesting interpretation when arranging music and that he has an innate talent that should be pursued. We spent a fraction of what this spring semester would have cost us upgrading his sound recording software and other home studio accessories. He has since taken lessons directly with an established studio that takes in and develops young talent. He has just finished up an internship there and already has a short-term job with possible long-term possibilities with a studio to edit music videos as well as other leads in other studios. He has developed his home recording studio into one where he is regularly getting paid to record. He also creates and sells a pretty large number of beats. He is also attending local community college.

My daughter, on the other hand, went into finance. Completed school in 4 years and was hired directly out of school. In her case, I don't think she would be in the position she was without the degree. In my son's case, I don't think college would make a difference in his career trajectory, and he is MUCH happier pursuing his creative talents rather than taking world history and physics in order to be allowed to be part of the sound recording program at college.

In other words, your kids' individual talents and areas of interest should guide their college decisions. If its all the one-upsmanship nonsense associated with the college admissions process, then just don't play that game.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a kid who is coming up (current 6th grader) and I am seriously questioning the value of a college education in the current system. I don't trust the admissions process, and I think they are basically corrupt institutions that protect their own. From the outside now the current system just looks ridiculous. The cost is unethical, causing massive lifelong burden on the kids who can least afford it. It's appalling how little the colleges are taking responsibility for their part in the corruption scandal, and I can only assume it's because that scandal is just the tip of the bribery iceberg and colleges don't want to open that can of worms. I don't think there is a correlation between teaching quality and college level, so saying it is for the education seems false.

Has anyone had their kids who might have been competitive for a "good" college step out of this process entirely? Skip college or go to a community college and then transfer to a state college? I just feel sick about the idea of gearing up to give institutions that seem wholly corrupt thousands of dollars that were really hard to earn, for a degree of what I perceive as less and less valuable.

This is a very sensible approach but most DC types who post here think that's a step down. Ignore them. All that matters is where the final degree is from. Most states with a well developed state college system offers some sort of variation of this. If you are in VA, you need to meet certain requirements such as taking core courses and get a certain GPA. Each VA university has its own cut-off.

Since you just want a piece of paper, maybe. But if you are looking for actual education, then no.

Very few jobs need to be done by a college graduate. Doctors, lawyers, engineers and other scientists, sure. Sales people, AP/AR people, marketing and low HR people? Not so much.

Where I work wants the receptionists to have a college degree. Then they complain about not being able to keep someone in the position. Umm, maybe bc a degree isn’t needed and those taking the job are just doing so bc it’s A job paying relatively well while they keep looking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ my cousin did it that way (community college) then transferred to a California University. And guess what? Her GPA was much higher than it would have been had she done all four years at the Cal University because grading was easier at the community college.

I live in CA, and I’ve heard of more kids doing this. You can save on 2 years of higher tuition, and apparently it is easier to get into some competitive University of California schools as a transfer student versus directly from high school. My concern would be that the kid does not stay focused and never make the transfer...

This happens a lot. Particularly if they are also working while attending community college and they like the money and don't want to give it up to do more school full time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh good grief OP!

If your kid graduates HS I hope they leave you in the dust and make something of themselves.

OP here. Are you a professor?

Sorry that cut off. I was asking because I find people who are very defensive about the current value of college tend to be those invested in protecting its (IMO) artificially inflated value, even on the backs of kids who can't safely afford it.

OP are you the poster on another thread who has such disdain for professors? If so, please seek help!

OP here. That wasn't me.

I do have disdain for people who aren't willing to look at the rampant corruption in this system because they benefit from it.

Whether you are right or not, if you opt your kid out of this system, a lot of doors are going to be slammed shut in your kid's face. That's just the reality. There are plenty of options for getting a college degree that are affordable and non competitive. Opting your kid out of college because you disagree with the system is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh good grief OP!

If your kid graduates HS I hope they leave you in the dust and make something of themselves.

OP here. Are you a professor?

Sorry that cut off. I was asking because I find people who are very defensive about the current value of college tend to be those invested in protecting its (IMO) artificially inflated value, even on the backs of kids who can't safely afford it.

OP are you the poster on another thread who has such disdain for professors? If so, please seek help!

OP here. That wasn't me.

I do have disdain for people who aren't willing to look at the rampant corruption in this system because they benefit from it.

Anonymous wrote:I have a kid who is coming up (current 6th grader) and I am seriously questioning the value of a college education in the current system. I don't trust the admissions process, and I think they are basically corrupt institutions that protect their own. From the outside now the current system just looks ridiculous. The cost is unethical, causing massive lifelong burden on the kids who can least afford it. It's appalling how little the colleges are taking responsibility for their part in the corruption scandal, and I can only assume it's because that scandal is just the tip of the bribery iceberg and colleges don't want to open that can of worms. I don't think there is a correlation between teaching quality and college level, so saying it is for the education seems false.

Has anyone had their kids who might have been competitive for a "good" college step out of this process entirely? Skip college or go to a community college and then transfer to a state college? I just feel sick about the idea of gearing up to give institutions that seem wholly corrupt thousands of dollars that were really hard to earn, for a degree of what I perceive as less and less valuable.

Based on the rest of your post, I think you left out the word "elite". You seem to think that the only option that exists is $70+k at a top 20 school. You need to get out of your bubble. College is an investment in future earnings and future job options. If you aren't going to be able to clear your debt in 10 years or less, you need a different plan. There are plenty of affordable, good options for students of all economic means that provide a great return on investment. Stop trying to "keep up with the Joneses" and instead figure out your kid's interests and find the right match of a post-high school experience, whether that is a 4-year degree, trade school, military, or some other option.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Massive misconception notwithstanding, college is not intended to be trade school, and the most important thing thus is not "what you are going to do with it," but rather "what is it going to do with you." A good education, a real education, changes who people are. Education like that is harder and harder to find, but I hope a youngster can still find it if they want it enough. If they can, it is the "pearl of great price, and worth doing almost anything to get.

That's really idealistic, though, for kids who will bear a lifelong debt burden for this.

Either you’re a crappy parent for not saving for your child’s education or your child will be a crappy adult with a subpar job for not being able to pay off loans in a reasonable timeframe. Only incompetents endure a lifetime burden of paying off student loans.

,


hahaha. STFU. You are a damaged human being to actually believe this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Massive misconception notwithstanding, college is not intended to be trade school, and the most important thing thus is not "what you are going to do with it," but rather "what is it going to do with you." A good education, a real education, changes who people are. Education like that is harder and harder to find, but I hope a youngster can still find it if they want it enough. If they can, it is the "pearl of great price, and worth doing almost anything to get.

That's really idealistic, though, for kids who will bear a lifelong debt burden for this.

Either you’re a crappy parent for not saving for your child’s education or your child will be a crappy adult with a subpar job for not being able to pay off loans in a reasonable timeframe. Only incompetents endure a lifetime burden of paying off student loans.

Give me a break. Most Americans don’t have ave savings because the cost of living is sky high. I make a little over $50k per year as a teacher and don’t have a dime to put aside for my kid’s college education. I am not alone. I took out student loans like every one of my friends and we have all paid them back. I had them paid off by my early 30s (undergrad and grad). That is hardly a lifetime.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ my cousin did it that way (community college) then transferred to a California University. And guess what? Her GPA was much higher than it would have been had she done all four years at the Cal University because grading was easier at the community college.

I live in CA, and I’ve heard of more kids doing this. You can save on 2 years of higher tuition, and apparently it is easier to get into some competitive University of California schools as a transfer student versus directly from high school. My concern would be that the kid does not stay focused and never make the transfer...

Yes, this is becoming much more common in CA. I think the old stigma of community college is really eroding there as it's become so hard for strong students to get into top UCs. I was just visiting friends there and a few have kids at community colleges, working to transfer to UCLA and Berkeley. In one case, the community college student had two older siblings who went to UCLA several years ago with lower GPAs/SATs than she had but it's just gotten so much harder to get in. She only wanted to go to UCLA so is taking the transfer route and is very focused on making it happen.

There's a whole anti-college movement. Join it if you want, OP. Give whatever money you would have spent on your kid to go to college to start his/her own business. There's a group that thinks this is a great idea. I don't, but you do whatever you want.