Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:31     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
It was likely the content or how she wrote the email and not just the title used.

Especially if an advisor spoke to her. Advisors don't generally use titles, at least not where I teach.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:28     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
If you are not an academic, you may not get that being a "FULL" Professor (with tenure) is the highest level of the hierarchy (vs Associate Professor, Assistant Professor, Instructor, Lecturer, TA). Many (maybe most?) faculty members do not attain that level.

Actually, fewer and fewer schools are granting tenure, and many are opting for legions of "adjunct faculty" who earn much less, may not have offices, benefits, etc. It is exploitive of many young PhD's and means they are less available to students than full time faculty would be.

For most academics, students would be considered fine to say "Professor" or "Dr"--as others have said, err on the side of respect/formality, unless otherwise directed.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:28     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:Daughter claims basically all of her professors and faculty prefer first name basis. And that same majority are casual about emails, i.e. just say what you have to say, no need for the formal business format each email "Dear Dr. so and so, ... blah blah ... Best, kiddo."

But she casually called one professor by their first name and was sort of pulled to the side and chastised face to face. She did the same in an email response to an advisor and the advisor literally told her to meet her in the office later in the week. At the office she told her she needs to conduct herself with more professionalism. Calm down, Ms. Advisor.

Are the two outliers just obnoxious jerks or do they have a point?


Academic here. I tend to be pretty relaxed about all this stuff though that's not true for everyone. And frankly if you're a younger female professor and/or person of color, you have to deal with so many petty misunderstandings and incidents of disrespect that I totally get why someone in that position might be a stickler for titles.

But I wanted to point out that if your DD's advisor asked to meet with her to discuss professional conduct, it's probably about more than simply the use of a title. What was in her email? How is she behaving in class? I'm amazed at some of the BS pulled by kids I've taught and they're all grad students.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:25     Subject: Re:How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
I know there have been a number of past DCUM threads in which great scorn was heaped upon PhDs who wanted to be called "Doctor" in the workplace. "Ha, only an insecure uptight aszhole wants to be called doctor just because they have a PhD!"

But now, apparently, it's all about the Respect and Professionalism...

And before everyone says academia is not the same as the workplace, in fact, adults in the workplace should show more respect and professionalism to other adults with credentials than students at university should show to their professors, not less. Presuming, at least, that adults in the workplace are more mature than college students.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:23     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I teach in academia and the number of unprofessional emails I get is ridiculous.

Usually the first email a student sends should be addressed to Professor Last name. If the professor responds signing off with their first name, then it is fine to respond to that with a first name as well.

I get a lot of:
very casual
Hey,
I missed class yesterday, could you send me the notes and anything I missed?

Hey Larla,
Great class. Loved the pics you showed. I have to head out early next week - just wanted to let you know I won't be in class. Family thing.

or no greeting and just a sentence
When did you say the paper was due?

or text speak
Hi,
Can u tell me who I talk 2 about the marking?

or just poor professionalism
Professor,
I couldn't come to class or office hours but I don't understand the assignment. Can you answer my questions here by email, I can't find the answers in the textbook. Lists questions that were all covered in the lecture
Thanks in advance

We now have an email policy that students are supposed to follow - few do. It tells them how to write a proper email.


Why does a so-called unprofessional email bother you? It sounds like you're conflating unprofessional with direct and brevity. I prefer my emails, both sent and received, get straight to the point. Who the heck has time for greetings and closing every email? Who wants to even read all of it? It's so extra, it's pointless, it actually annoys me and fatigues my eyes to have to scroll. It's very petty if this bothers you. Modern communication is short and to the point and often via iPhone. All of this formalness has gone the way of the dodo bird and execs wearing suits and ties. Everything is casual. We're all equals. Get with the times.


NP. Because the emails are rude and it has nothing to do with directness and brevity. The PP does not ask for long introductions and protocol. It doesn’t take much longer to write “dear Prof. X” than “hey Larla” use “please” and to add “thank you” at the end.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:23     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I teach in academia and the number of unprofessional emails I get is ridiculous.

Usually the first email a student sends should be addressed to Professor Last name. If the professor responds signing off with their first name, then it is fine to respond to that with a first name as well.

I get a lot of:
very casual
Hey,
I missed class yesterday, could you send me the notes and anything I missed?

Hey Larla,
Great class. Loved the pics you showed. I have to head out early next week - just wanted to let you know I won't be in class. Family thing.

or no greeting and just a sentence
When did you say the paper was due?

or text speak
Hi,
Can u tell me who I talk 2 about the marking?

or just poor professionalism
Professor,
I couldn't come to class or office hours but I don't understand the assignment. Can you answer my questions here by email, I can't find the answers in the textbook. Lists questions that were all covered in the lecture
Thanks in advance

We now have an email policy that students are supposed to follow - few do. It tells them how to write a proper email.


Why does a so-called unprofessional email bother you? It sounds like you're conflating unprofessional with direct and brevity. I prefer my emails, both sent and received, get straight to the point. Who the heck has time for greetings and closing every email? Who wants to even read all of it? It's so extra, it's pointless, it actually annoys me and fatigues my eyes to have to scroll. It's very petty if this bothers you. Modern communication is short and to the point and often via iPhone. All of this formalness has gone the way of the dodo bird and execs wearing suits and ties. Everything is casual. We're all equals. Get with the times.

Who has time for greetings and club sings?!? Are you serious? It adds maybe 5 seconds.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:21     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Were both the people who called your daughter out on her rude behavior women? Because female professors/academics are sooooo much more likely to get called by their first names or Mrs/Ms so and so.

And everyone pretty much said, students never cal a professor by his or her first name until they are expressly invited to do so.

I went to law school as an “older” student, after getting a PhD. So I had a higher degree than the vast majority of my professors and was actually older than a handful of them. I never called anyone anything other than Prof. XYZ. It’s not hard and leaves a very poor impression when not done.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:19     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I teach in academia and the number of unprofessional emails I get is ridiculous.

Usually the first email a student sends should be addressed to Professor Last name. If the professor responds signing off with their first name, then it is fine to respond to that with a first name as well.

I get a lot of:
very casual
Hey,
I missed class yesterday, could you send me the notes and anything I missed?

Hey Larla,
Great class. Loved the pics you showed. I have to head out early next week - just wanted to let you know I won't be in class. Family thing.

or no greeting and just a sentence
When did you say the paper was due?

or text speak
Hi,
Can u tell me who I talk 2 about the marking?

or just poor professionalism
Professor,
I couldn't come to class or office hours but I don't understand the assignment. Can you answer my questions here by email, I can't find the answers in the textbook. Lists questions that were all covered in the lecture
Thanks in advance

We now have an email policy that students are supposed to follow - few do. It tells them how to write a proper email.


Why does a so-called unprofessional email bother you? It sounds like you're conflating unprofessional with direct and brevity. I prefer my emails, both sent and received, get straight to the point. Who the heck has time for greetings and closing every email? Who wants to even read all of it? It's so extra, it's pointless, it actually annoys me and fatigues my eyes to have to scroll. It's very petty if this bothers you. Modern communication is short and to the point and often via iPhone. All of this formalness has gone the way of the dodo bird and execs wearing suits and ties. Everything is casual. We're all equals. Get with the times.


It's not petty at all. It's extremely unprofessional to send a casual email to a professor. You wouldn't do it to your boss; so don't do it to your professor.

Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:16     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:I teach in academia and the number of unprofessional emails I get is ridiculous.

Usually the first email a student sends should be addressed to Professor Last name. If the professor responds signing off with their first name, then it is fine to respond to that with a first name as well.

I get a lot of:
very casual
Hey,
I missed class yesterday, could you send me the notes and anything I missed?

Hey Larla,
Great class. Loved the pics you showed. I have to head out early next week - just wanted to let you know I won't be in class. Family thing.

or no greeting and just a sentence
When did you say the paper was due?

or text speak
Hi,
Can u tell me who I talk 2 about the marking?

or just poor professionalism
Professor,
I couldn't come to class or office hours but I don't understand the assignment. Can you answer my questions here by email, I can't find the answers in the textbook. Lists questions that were all covered in the lecture
Thanks in advance

We now have an email policy that students are supposed to follow - few do. It tells them how to write a proper email.


Why does a so-called unprofessional email bother you? It sounds like you're conflating unprofessional with direct and brevity. I prefer my emails, both sent and received, get straight to the point. Who the heck has time for greetings and closing every email? Who wants to even read all of it? It's so extra, it's pointless, it actually annoys me and fatigues my eyes to have to scroll. It's very petty if this bothers you. Modern communication is short and to the point and often via iPhone. All of this formalness has gone the way of the dodo bird and execs wearing suits and ties. Everything is casual. We're all equals. Get with the times.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:07     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:I teach in academia and the number of unprofessional emails I get is ridiculous.

Usually the first email a student sends should be addressed to Professor Last name. If the professor responds signing off with their first name, then it is fine to respond to that with a first name as well.

I get a lot of:
very casual
Hey,
I missed class yesterday, could you send me the notes and anything I missed?

Hey Larla,
Great class. Loved the pics you showed. I have to head out early next week - just wanted to let you know I won't be in class. Family thing.

or no greeting and just a sentence
When did you say the paper was due?

or text speak
Hi,
Can u tell me who I talk 2 about the marking?

or just poor professionalism
Professor,
I couldn't come to class or office hours but I don't understand the assignment. Can you answer my questions here by email, I can't find the answers in the textbook. Lists questions that were all covered in the lecture
Thanks in advance

We now have an email policy that students are supposed to follow - few do. It tells them how to write a proper email.


This made me LOL. I guess standards have devolved a lot in the past decade or two. I don't recall getting emails like that even as a TA!
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:05     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:What do you call a new doctor? Probably "DR."
PhD's go to graduate school longer than doctors to to medical school (though I understand they have clinical training beyond that).

My point is, the culturally appropriate behavior is to start off formal (ie. with optimal respect) and become familiar with permission. Isn't that what you did with even your child's high school teachers? Why would college professors deserve less respect?

Funny that you start off with, "Daughter claims basically all of her professors and faculty prefer first name basis."
Obviously, assuming this was your child's first mistake. It is much more common in graduate school (especially for doctoral students who are typically there for 5-7 years, so they become colleagues by the end of their training). But even then, there are exceptions.

This could be a valuable lesson for your daughter. Don't undermine it with comments like, "They must be obnoxious jerks."


I’m a pediatrician. Patients and parents can and do call me by my first name. I don’t mind. Now the egomaniac surgeons, some of them do care.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:04     Subject: Re:How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:The reason you go with Professor rather than Dr is because many instructors only hold Masters or are just working on their doctorate - so should not be called Dr.
Dr. is definitely more prestigious than Professor. Just ask a lawyer, they go crazy that they can't be called Dr unless they have a PhD in law.

The default should be Professor, never Mrs. or Mr. Generally, what you will se is undergrads use Professor/Dr and switching to first names in grad school

I taught in various institutions of various levels for 2 decades. I went by my first name because it fits my teaching style, what I taught, and because when I first started teaching I was 25 and was often teaching students older than myself. I never really pushed back against students if they preferred Dr or Professor, only if they called me Mrs. x or Miss x. However, at times I would have students that grew up in lower income areas where the default for women (regardless of their age) was Miss, I decided it was not my place to correct them. If I had the same students as upperclassmen, they had made the switch. The same with people on the GI bill, nearly impossible for them to call me anything but ma'am the first two years.


Interesting. In the countries I lived and worked in, it was the opposite - Professor was always a coveted title (and actual position) held by only the most senior academics. Everyone else was 'just' Dr. (It was very rare for a non-PhD to be leading a course in the universities I have experience in, most of the time they were just TAs who assisted, and they were referred to by their first name.)
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:03     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is now in the world of academia. This is how academia works: You err on the side of respect until you are invited into a more informal relationship.

Don't like it? You don't have to stay in academia.

I have a master's degree and have worked as an administrative staff member at four universities and a law school. This is how academia is. Now you know, too.


What exactly is disrespectful about using someone's first name?


There is a hierarchy, and titles reflect the order of the hierarchy. Your daughter is at the bottom of the hierarchy. The professors are her superiors.

Did you not learn about this growing up? Did she call her teachers by their first names? Did she call your friends by their first names and not to buy, Mr. or Mrs.?

Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 17:01     Subject: How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
I teach in academia and the number of unprofessional emails I get is ridiculous.

Usually the first email a student sends should be addressed to Professor Last name. If the professor responds signing off with their first name, then it is fine to respond to that with a first name as well.

I get a lot of:
very casual
Hey,
I missed class yesterday, could you send me the notes and anything I missed?

Hey Larla,
Great class. Loved the pics you showed. I have to head out early next week - just wanted to let you know I won't be in class. Family thing.

or no greeting and just a sentence
When did you say the paper was due?

or text speak
Hi,
Can u tell me who I talk 2 about the marking?

or just poor professionalism
Professor,
I couldn't come to class or office hours but I don't understand the assignment. Can you answer my questions here by email, I can't find the answers in the textbook. Lists questions that were all covered in the lecture
Thanks in advance

We now have an email policy that students are supposed to follow - few do. It tells them how to write a proper email.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2019 16:54     Subject: Re:How are kids supposed to address professors? Dr., Professor, first name? Daughter got rude reaction
Anonymous wrote:As an undergrad student, you need to call people Dr or Prof at least until invited directly to do otherwise by that specific person.

As a postgrad student, it's still convention to use titles until/unless invited to do otherwise.

When you have a PhD, it's convention to use first names and it would be very strange to do (or be expected to do) otherwise.

I agree with the PP who said that most of the people your DD is interacting with are probably TAs, most of whom probably don't have their PhD yet.


P.S. I had students addressing me as Dr even before I had my PhD, and I just corrected them that it was a few years/months off, and that they should call me FirstName. It demonstrates respect and it's never the wrong thing to do.