Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I agree there is natural talent when it comes to the top performers. But it’s like 90% practice and persistence and preparation (AKA tiger mom element) and then among those kids who do this best the amount of natural talent will then separate the 1st place national winner from the 2nd place etc. These kids (like top basketball players) are practicing the most. Hours and hours a day. That’s at least 90% of the equation.

But. Big but. This is concerning contest math. Which is different than actual math.

I kind of agree. For mathcounts nationals, there's maybe a pool of 2000 kids who have the math aptitude to end up in the top 50. Kids below that aren't going to be able to practice or tiger mom their way into that elite group. But among those 2000 kids, the difference maker between making the top 50 and not doing so will be who is practicing the most. I would guess that there are many non-Asian kids among that 2000 who don't think practicing hours per day for mathcounts is a valuable use of their time.

Contest math is different than actual math to some degree. I have yet to encounter a kid who excelled at contest math who wasn't also excelling at actual math. I have encountered many kids who excel at actual math but perform poorly at contests. Those top 50 kids in Mathcounts are almost certainly taking calculus or beyond as 8th graders and have breezed through regular school math.

There are over 3 million 8th graders in the United States. You really think only 2000 kids have the math ability to compete at national level in math? I would say more like 20,000 8th graders have the math ability if not more. I mean surely the top .001 percentile math kids could compete if they put in the hours of practice. But a very small percentage of those that can actually put in the hours and hours and hours a day to be competitive. I also think the nature of math counts, for example, makes speed a real factor which isn’t favoring the deep thinking kids.

Back to the argument at hand. I think when you see Asians dominate a contest it’s because of tiger parenting. Its not meant to offend. It’s just become the shorthand for parents pushing their kids to excel academically by lots and lots of practice. I don’t think there is anything wrong with it! I don’t recall anyone on this thread bashing it. The argument made was that some kids just love math. But only some parents think that a love of math means you have to sign up for math class and study for math contests.

People who claim their kid is mathematically gifted should be encouraged to participate in math competitions. Either the kid will do well and get some much needed enrichment, or the kid will do poorly and the parents will get a much needed reality check. Win-Win

I find this forum generally ridiculous whenever a parent posts about anything related to challenging their kid academically. If anyone asks a question about AAP preparedness or math or science competitions, or anything else where a parent wants to challenge their kid, there are usually a bunch of crazies who try and shame a Poster into thinking they aren't letting their kids be kids. Perhaps that is generally the reason why the U.S. is so awful in educating STEM--parents or unqualified teachers hold kids back with the thought that just because you want to engage your kids and critically challenge them, you are pushing them and aren't letting them be kids. The flip side is that if you're not providing that challenge, perhaps you are artificially holding your child back. No one knows better than the original poster what their child is capable of, and whether the OP used the term "gifted" appropriately is no one else's business. Perhaps their child is just a high achiever and not truly gifted, it's none of our business. The OP just asked for feedback on math competitions, and not everyone's OPINION on whether the child needs to sit for a competition or whether the OP is a "tiger parent." And, incidentally, there is ZERO shame in being a "tiger parent." The reason you see Asians dominating the fields of STEM is because no Asian parent is apologetic about being a "tiger parent." It comes quite naturally to most Asian parents, and many Asian parents laugh at the gullibility of those who assume there's shame attached to it. Perhaps the OP wants the child to sit through a national competition to understand exactly where the DS stands in math on a national level. There's zero harm in that, especially if the parent believes the kid may have a talent and the kid WANTS to do it. It is a great way to find out whether the hypothesis is true. To anonymously say crap about why that is so "wrong" is appalling and degenerates this forum from actually doing the main thing it was set up to do--provide HELPFUL insight into the main question being asked. Time and again I read all kinds of crappy responses on here where parents are being attacked by a bunch of moronic individuals who have no desire to actually help other than to try and stir the pot with opinionated and asinine responses. If there's no input to provide on the original post, and you feel the need to gossip and make assumptions about someone you don't know from Adam, go find a friend to call and gossip about something you saw on here!

To the OP, you can find local math competitions here: https://artofproblemsolving.com/wiki/index.php/List_of_United_States_elementary_school_mathematics_competitions. Good luck to your son!

Anonymous wrote:
I agree there is natural talent when it comes to the top performers. But it’s like 90% practice and persistence and preparation (AKA tiger mom element) and then among those kids who do this best the amount of natural talent will then separate the 1st place national winner from the 2nd place etc. These kids (like top basketball players) are practicing the most. Hours and hours a day. That’s at least 90% of the equation.

But. Big but. This is concerning contest math. Which is different than actual math.

I kind of agree. For mathcounts nationals, there's maybe a pool of 2000 kids who have the math aptitude to end up in the top 50. Kids below that aren't going to be able to practice or tiger mom their way into that elite group. But among those 2000 kids, the difference maker between making the top 50 and not doing so will be who is practicing the most. I would guess that there are many non-Asian kids among that 2000 who don't think practicing hours per day for mathcounts is a valuable use of their time.

Contest math is different than actual math to some degree. I have yet to encounter a kid who excelled at contest math who wasn't also excelling at actual math. I have encountered many kids who excel at actual math but perform poorly at contests. Those top 50 kids in Mathcounts are almost certainly taking calculus or beyond as 8th graders and have breezed through regular school math.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ I agree, but there's a weird double standard for math. If a dad is playing soccer at the field every day with his 3 year old, people think he's an amazing parent. If parents read to their children every night and force them to do independent reading for an hour each day, that's also great parenting. If people start private music lessons with their 4 year olds and have them playing their violins every day, their talent is celebrated. If a parent wants to do 10 minutes of extra math, then it's OMG, Tiger Parent!!! Stop destroying your child's childhood!

It’s the using “my kid has a natural talent. I can’t help but make him do math beyond his year and enter him in contest math”

I can always tell when a parent knows deep down it’s not natural talent. Because they are the ones who stress about keeping the kid ahead. They know deep down as soon as the “enrichment” lets up junior will no longer be ahead in math. Because junior is not some natural maths genius.

Tiger parents know their cub’s achievement has to be advanced for them to look smart. It has to be a 4yo doing large sums or a 8yo learning trigonometry. It cannot be just doing grade level work in a creative and advanced way that shows deep mathematical understanding.

10 minutes of extra math a night is wonderful. Nobody thinks it’s tiger parenting until that parent claims an 8yo is “math gifted” because he scores in the top 2 percentiles of some test that parent prepped the kid for since he was 18 months old.

You're wrong. We know deep down it is natural talent. You may find it hard to believe when yours don't have anything close to it.

Look at the International Math Olympiad Team USA. It's mostly Asian as well. At the Olympiad level, tiger parenting itself without natural talent is not gonna make it, regardless whether we're talking about math or sports.

I agree there is natural talent when it comes to the top performers. But it’s like 90% practice and persistence and preparation (AKA tiger mom element) and then among those kids who do this best the amount of natural talent will then separate the 1st place national winner from the 2nd place etc. These kids (like top basketball players) are practicing the most. Hours and hours a day. That’s at least 90% of the equation.

But. Big but. This is concerning contest math. Which is different than actual math.

Anonymous wrote:If every kid in mathcounts wants to be there and just loves math...why are they predominately Asian?

I’m just looking through my middle school’s team—all Asian. My state winners all have Asian surnames. The 2018 top 50 in nationals. 49 with Asian sounding surnames.

What gives? Do only Asian American middle schoolers love math? Or is this evidence of tiger parenting working?

I think that it is cultural. DS loves math, he used his Lincoln Logs to work out multiplication at the age of 4. We smiled, encouraged him, played math games with him and didn't enroll him in math enrichment. We think the math pacing in his second grade class is slow and continue to play games and ask him questions at home but we are not enrolling him in math enrichment. Mind you, we also understand that while the math is easy for him we know that there are other kids who are struggling with it. I wish to god that they would start group work so that they can start differentiating but for some reason this is a very slow process.

He also enjoys sports so he plays a sport each season and does Ninja Warrior once a week. He asked to do three after school enrichment activities at school so we enrolled him in those. They are all STEM based. Mind you, these are his choices. If he said he didn't want to participate, we wouldn't enroll him. He needs to enjoy his extra activities. The only exception is swimming. That is a life skill that he has to have.

I want my child to have a balance in his activities and to enjoy what he is doing. We have math workbooks at home but he whines at doing those if we ask him to. He attends school for a long enough period of time that making him do extra math, or anything, is a pain in the butt. He will do workbooks over the summer but that is how he earns his screen time and when he has spent most of the day outside running around playing at camp.

He would do great in math enrichment, we are well aware of that, but he doesn't want to spend more time sitting at a desk doing math. So we have him help with cooking. We play board games that require strategic thinking and math at home. We have brain teaser books that he enjoys and Sudoku type things.

He is going to do fine in his math classes because he has a natural aptitude but we don't see the value in getting him far ahead of his peers and he does not want to sit down and do extra school work. I don't understand the pressure to have DS taking Algebra in 6th grade or to out pace the math offerings at the high schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ I agree, but there's a weird double standard for math. If a dad is playing soccer at the field every day with his 3 year old, people think he's an amazing parent. If parents read to their children every night and force them to do independent reading for an hour each day, that's also great parenting. If people start private music lessons with their 4 year olds and have them playing their violins every day, their talent is celebrated. If a parent wants to do 10 minutes of extra math, then it's OMG, Tiger Parent!!! Stop destroying your child's childhood!

It’s the using “my kid has a natural talent. I can’t help but make him do math beyond his year and enter him in contest math”

I can always tell when a parent knows deep down it’s not natural talent. Because they are the ones who stress about keeping the kid ahead. They know deep down as soon as the “enrichment” lets up junior will no longer be ahead in math. Because junior is not some natural maths genius.

Tiger parents know their cub’s achievement has to be advanced for them to look smart. It has to be a 4yo doing large sums or a 8yo learning trigonometry. It cannot be just doing grade level work in a creative and advanced way that shows deep mathematical understanding.

10 minutes of extra math a night is wonderful. Nobody thinks it’s tiger parenting until that parent claims an 8yo is “math gifted” because he scores in the top 2 percentiles of some test that parent prepped the kid for since he was 18 months old.

You're wrong. We know deep down it is natural talent. You may find it hard to believe when yours don't have anything close to it.

Look at the International Math Olympiad Team USA. It's mostly Asian as well. At the Olympiad level, tiger parenting itself without natural talent is not gonna make it, regardless whether we're talking about math or sports.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ I agree, but there's a weird double standard for math. If a dad is playing soccer at the field every day with his 3 year old, people think he's an amazing parent. If parents read to their children every night and force them to do independent reading for an hour each day, that's also great parenting. If people start private music lessons with their 4 year olds and have them playing their violins every day, their talent is celebrated. If a parent wants to do 10 minutes of extra math, then it's OMG, Tiger Parent!!! Stop destroying your child's childhood!

It’s the using “my kid has a natural talent. I can’t help but make him do math beyond his year and enter him in contest math”

I can always tell when a parent knows deep down it’s not natural talent. Because they are the ones who stress about keeping the kid ahead. They know deep down as soon as the “enrichment” lets up junior will no longer be ahead in math. Because junior is not some natural maths genius.

Tiger parents know their cub’s achievement has to be advanced for them to look smart. It has to be a 4yo doing large sums or a 8yo learning trigonometry. It cannot be just doing grade level work in a creative and advanced way that shows deep mathematical understanding.

10 minutes of extra math a night is wonderful. Nobody thinks it’s tiger parenting until that parent claims an 8yo is “math gifted” because he scores in the top 2 percentiles of some test that parent prepped the kid for since he was 18 months old.

You're wrong. We know deep down it is natural talent. You may find it hard to believe when yours don't have anything close to it.

I just checked math kabgaroo. It is quite advanced full of word problems. My AAP child won't do well even though he does very well in school. Any child who does well in these competitions should be considered bright or talented in math (not in life because life is a different b****).

Anonymous wrote:If every kid in mathcounts wants to be there and just loves math...why are they predominately Asian?

I’m just looking through my middle school’s team—all Asian. My state winners all have Asian surnames. The 2018 top 50 in nationals. 49 with Asian sounding surnames.

What gives? Do only Asian American middle schoolers love math? Or is this evidence of tiger parenting working?

Doing well in Mathcounts requires both natural talent and a lot of hard work. Many kids either aren't willing to put in the work, don't think math contests are worth that amount of work, or have other conflicting activities. I guess it is evidence of tiger parenting working, in the sense that Asian American children tend to be hard workers. Asian Americans are dominating all academic and music competitions.

If every kid in mathcounts wants to be there and just loves math...why are they predominately Asian?

I’m just looking through my middle school’s team—all Asian. My state winners all have Asian surnames. The 2018 top 50 in nationals. 49 with Asian sounding surnames.

What gives? Do only Asian American middle schoolers love math? Or is this evidence of tiger parenting working?

Anonymous wrote:
It’s the using “my kid has a natural talent. I can’t help but make him do math beyond his year and enter him in contest math”

Natural talent isn't what makes kids the star in anything, though. The kids who are stars on the travel soccer team have some degree of natural talent, but also have been coached and have worked their tails off from a very young age. They aren't natural phenoms who don't otherwise practice much. The same is true for music. Kids who excel in music have some degree of natural talent, but they've also been taking private lessons since age 4 and play for over an hour every day.

Some kids really enjoy math. There's nothing wrong with having them practice math, do math enrichment, or enter contests if the kid loves math and wants to do it. Most AAP centers have math teams that participate in math competitions. I'm sure some kids are signed up by their parents and are indifferent to math, but most of the kids enjoy math and want to be there. OP's kid might have a natural talent in math. The kid might merely be a bright kid who likes math. Who cares, as long as it's the kid who is interested in the math and not the OP interested in forcing the kid to do math.

Anonymous wrote:^ I agree, but there's a weird double standard for math. If a dad is playing soccer at the field every day with his 3 year old, people think he's an amazing parent. If parents read to their children every night and force them to do independent reading for an hour each day, that's also great parenting. If people start private music lessons with their 4 year olds and have them playing their violins every day, their talent is celebrated. If a parent wants to do 10 minutes of extra math, then it's OMG, Tiger Parent!!! Stop destroying your child's childhood!

It’s the using “my kid has a natural talent. I can’t help but make him do math beyond his year and enter him in contest math”

I can always tell when a parent knows deep down it’s not natural talent. Because they are the ones who stress about keeping the kid ahead. They know deep down as soon as the “enrichment” lets up junior will no longer be ahead in math. Because junior is not some natural maths genius.

Tiger parents know their cub’s achievement has to be advanced for them to look smart. It has to be a 4yo doing large sums or a 8yo learning trigonometry. It cannot be just doing grade level work in a creative and advanced way that shows deep mathematical understanding.

10 minutes of extra math a night is wonderful. Nobody thinks it’s tiger parenting until that parent claims an 8yo is “math gifted” because he scores in the top 2 percentiles of some test that parent prepped the kid for since he was 18 months old.

^ I agree, but there's a weird double standard for math. If a dad is playing soccer at the field every day with his 3 year old, people think he's an amazing parent. If parents read to their children every night and force them to do independent reading for an hour each day, that's also great parenting. If people start private music lessons with their 4 year olds and have them playing their violins every day, their talent is celebrated. If a parent wants to do 10 minutes of extra math, then it's OMG, Tiger Parent!!! Stop destroying your child's childhood!

Anonymous wrote:You could sit an 18 month old on a bicycle and hold them and push it along. And you could do that every day and eventually around age 5 or 6ish, most of them would probably figure it out.

Every once in a while though some 18 month old is going to grab the handlebars their first time on and pedal down the street.

Some kids are indeed ready for and enjoy higher level mathematical thinking earlier than others. You cannot push it or force it. But when it happens, there’s no reason to hold the kid back if they want to explore math opportunities.

No amount of pushing on the part of the parents can make it so (no amount of holding the 18 month old on the bike will get them to ride it before they are ready). I think you can accelerate most kids 2-3 years but not much beyond that —- unless you have one of those unique gifted kids.

Wtf?

If a parent is putting an 18mo on a bicycle everyday the parents are clearly overly invested in bicycling and when that kid rides her bike earlier than peers it’s not because she’s gifted at cycling but because her parents pushed her (literally) everyday.

Same for maths.