Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not wrong. It’s dishonest to marry a big earner, reap the benefits and then bail out of the agreement in the middle, causing tremendous family turmoil.
At least wait until the kids are grown - it’s the respectable thing to do.

Again, read the OP. It sounds like the balance of family life was discussed and OP was given the impression that the work intensity would die down, and it didn't. Perhaps she should have believed what she was seeing, rather than what he was saying. But for the love of God, drop the obsession with insisting that women all marry for "big money". Most of us don't want to partner with wealthy, uninvolved men. Including OP.

It was dishonest of her to believe that and I’m sure that she knew in the back of her mind that that wasn’t true. Unless he quits his job for a 9-5 government job he’s apparently going to need help to be involved much with the family. And I doubt that she would be happy with him being a GS-13 in the govt but she could have that discussion with him.

You hear women nonstop talk about marrying for money. If you do that you don’t ‘drop the rope’ mid marriage and kids.

OP here - I was trying so hard to not respond to you but fine I'll bite. 1) Drop the rope means stopping caring / expecting him to be any different than he is today. Just accept the situation for what it is and make my decisions around it. You seem to think it means to divorce him and take all his money or something.

2) Women (like men) value a variety of different things in a spouse and prioritize for that a variety of ways so I'm not speaking for all women or other anecdotes you've seen. For myself, I never ever prioritized being wealthy or living a luxury lifestyle and actively tried to orient my life with that not as a primary goal. DH and I went to the same MBA program (where we met) and then the same career path. That path has a lot of flexibility, you can make tons of money and you can also go a different route and after a few years and have a reasonable salary and good work life balance - that's what prior to marriage we discussed and agreed we would both do after putting in our dues for a few years to get on that path (and what I did). We both care about our careers and of course I wanted to be able to pay our bills / provide for our kids without stressing every month, but I wouldn't trade a wealthier lifestyle for one or both of us largely checking out of family life to earn it. I believe emotionally he wishes he could do this and was this person but his anxiety and other insecurities get the best of him and when push comes to shove he gets both a lot of external validation from the intense path and it both feeds and eases his anxiety. I/we do not use the money we have today, do not need more money, and I would happily have him be a stay at home dad while I continued in my job and we lived off just my salary if that would make him happy. He'd be miserable though without the external validation and so much unstructured time and domestic tasks so that option is not on the table.

Anonymous wrote:I think you should spend more money on outside help.

I do NOT think you should amp down your own career to pick up DH's job on the parenting share, unless maybe your negotiate a very good post nup with him. Rather, pay others to do as much as possible.

Came here to say this. Outsource everything first. Then if you must scale back, explicitly tell him you have to scale back to pick up his slack, and get a post nup. Also make sure your name is on all accounts, and you handle the household finances. Establish a retirement account in your name, only, that he contributes to monthly. You are taking a huge risk to accommodate his laziness so protect yourself.

Personally, I wouldn't do what you propose. I'd either divorce or do intensive couples counseling in which he agrees to basic ground rules like hauling himself out of bed in the morning by x time, no work on weekends, home for dinner three nights a week, etc. He's a jerk, but you have allowed this situation to settle in.

Has he heard “The Cats in the Cradle” by Cat Stephens?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

am just considering stopping asking anything of him. I'd hire more help to take care of chores at home, make a career change so I could have the time to meet all the kids' needs, and just leave it to DH to engage with our family or not as he chooses. I don't think the kids would suffer, he'd be like a 1980s dad, he can be super fun and engaged when he's not distracted by work and would spend a couple hours focused on them during the weekend, and I'd fully take on ensuring their need for stability, emotional support, and logistical needs are met.

That's exactly what I did. I shared plans and then it was up to my spouse. It worked great. Sometimes I was solo with the kids - probably most of the time. And, sometimes we did things as a family. I took my kids on vacations by myself - even out of the country. I took them camping by myself. I took them to NYC at Christmas alone and everyone thought I was nuts because I had three young kids. But, it was the better alternative for us. My kids are older now and I have no regrets. I have great relationships with them and great memories with them. And, once I accepted that this is who we were, I stopped having stress in my house over it.

How did your spouse view what you did? Did he acknowledge the work you were putting in and recognize your contributions or think you were just living the dream life and lost an feeling of responsibility to engage? Was this what you wanted in terms of life (nothing wrong with that) or would have preferred to have had a career also but felt it was impossible to work in without losing your mind.

It worked for us. It wasn't what I had hoped for when we had kids. But, it was far better than the alternative when they were growing up. I hated the waiting, grumpiness, etc. When it came to trips, we always agreed to them (except maybe camping and I would do that spur of the moment if we had free weekends), but then often I was the only adult going. There was no animosity on either side and never any complaining of how much I spent of trips with the kids. On the flip side, I also did almost all of the kid things that get mind numbingly boring, like taking them to the pool every night in the summer or driving activity car pools. So, it's a trade off. And, like I said, no regrets on my part - the kids and I always had a good time and we didn't have the weight of someone who didn't want to be there dragging us down. Also, I found a job early on that was perfect for me and my lifestyle and has allowed me to advance and still have a good family work life balance. In fact, I've stayed with the company for almost two decades and have no plans to leave until I retire.

Anonymous wrote:

Not wrong. It’s dishonest to marry a big earner, reap the benefits and then bail out of the agreement in the middle, causing tremendous family turmoil.
At least wait until the kids are grown - it’s the respectable thing to do.

Again, read the OP. It sounds like the balance of family life was discussed and OP was given the impression that the work intensity would die down, and it didn't. Perhaps she should have believed what she was seeing, rather than what he was saying. But for the love of God, drop the obsession with insisting that women all marry for "big money". Most of us don't want to partner with wealthy, uninvolved men. Including OP.

But she definitely DID.

I did not. I have a husband who is around. We do not have interesting/pricey family vacations and many other things and in fact struggle to pay regular debts. It’s fine though. And it’s not like some utopia where I also then don’t have to also work to smooth things over between DH and the kids sometimes. A lot at some ages. All marriages and family relationships take work and compromise, not just yours. The grass is not greener.

Anonymous wrote:

Not wrong. It’s dishonest to marry a big earner, reap the benefits and then bail out of the agreement in the middle, causing tremendous family turmoil.
At least wait until the kids are grown - it’s the respectable thing to do.

Again, read the OP. It sounds like the balance of family life was discussed and OP was given the impression that the work intensity would die down, and it didn't. Perhaps she should have believed what she was seeing, rather than what he was saying. But for the love of God, drop the obsession with insisting that women all marry for "big money". Most of us don't want to partner with wealthy, uninvolved men. Including OP.

It was dishonest of her to believe that and I’m sure that she knew in the back of her mind that that wasn’t true. Unless he quits his job for a 9-5 government job he’s apparently going to need help to be involved much with the family. And I doubt that she would be happy with him being a GS-13 in the govt but she could have that discussion with him.

You hear women nonstop talk about marrying for money. If you do that you don’t ‘drop the rope’ mid marriage and kids.

This is OP - yeah some days it works and others he just reacts like a teenager rebelling against mom and refusing. It's not like after one nice request to get out of bed and join us for the zoo he cheerfully does it, its 30 minutes of trying to stay cheerful and positive doing it to his grouchiness back and then if I'm successful in getting him to go 2 hours later he'll say something like "Wow, I always feel so much better when I get out of bed and do something!" like that's shocking news every time. I feel like instead of him having to take responsibility for his own happiness it creates a soul crushing dynamic for me of having to try to talk him into it and a parent/child dynamic for him where he can rebel and put blame on me instead of taking responsibility for himself.

This all sounds so miserable - but day to day I'm not unhappy, I just can't handle it all anymore. When he is engaged we all have a lot of fun, day to day our life isn't miserable, I just am so tired of having to prod him along and its painful to have to do that. Part of me wants to just stop caring / fighting it and remove that whole day to day conflict from our lives by arranging my life around who he is. I'd rather be able to balance my own fairly demanding job with homelife, but if I think I'd rather just accept that and scale back some and stop excepting him to be able to carry some of the home front load without management. I'm not sure I can do it though and truly let the hope / resentment go.

OP you've got nice insight into your situation. That's great. And two kids in diapers...you're going to look back on these years and be really proud of yourself for just getting through! I'm the single mom who responded above and honestly I couldn't handle having to cheerfully orchestrate an unwilling spouse out of bed, so I applaud you for trying. I also think it's healthy you're realized that that particular dynamic is f*cked. I think a mindset switch is a great approach. Allows you to be proactive and move forward without focusing on resenting your spouse. He'll either rejoin eventually (or he won't), but I believe in the old adage that you don't make permanent decisions about a marriage while the kids are tiny (absent extreme situations, of course). The landscape still has too much potential change. Good luck and keep moving forward.

Anonymous wrote:

am just considering stopping asking anything of him. I'd hire more help to take care of chores at home, make a career change so I could have the time to meet all the kids' needs, and just leave it to DH to engage with our family or not as he chooses. I don't think the kids would suffer, he'd be like a 1980s dad, he can be super fun and engaged when he's not distracted by work and would spend a couple hours focused on them during the weekend, and I'd fully take on ensuring their need for stability, emotional support, and logistical needs are met.

That's exactly what I did. I shared plans and then it was up to my spouse. It worked great. Sometimes I was solo with the kids - probably most of the time. And, sometimes we did things as a family. I took my kids on vacations by myself - even out of the country. I took them camping by myself. I took them to NYC at Christmas alone and everyone thought I was nuts because I had three young kids. But, it was the better alternative for us. My kids are older now and I have no regrets. I have great relationships with them and great memories with them. And, once I accepted that this is who we were, I stopped having stress in my house over it.

How did your spouse view what you did? Did he acknowledge the work you were putting in and recognize your contributions or think you were just living the dream life and lost an feeling of responsibility to engage? Was this what you wanted in terms of life (nothing wrong with that) or would have preferred to have had a career also but felt it was impossible to work in without losing your mind.

Not wrong. It’s dishonest to marry a big earner, reap the benefits and then bail out of the agreement in the middle, causing tremendous family turmoil.
At least wait until the kids are grown - it’s the respectable thing to do.

Again, read the OP. It sounds like the balance of family life was discussed and OP was given the impression that the work intensity would die down, and it didn't. Perhaps she should have believed what she was seeing, rather than what he was saying. But for the love of God, drop the obsession with insisting that women all marry for "big money". Most of us don't want to partner with wealthy, uninvolved men. Including OP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that your kids will not suffer because of your DHs issues is insane. Divorce or not he is not a present father and that will have ramifications.

While they'd ideally have a more day to day engaged dad, I don't think they will "suffer". He can be a super fun dad and in an emergency he'd go to the end of the earth for him. In the day to day he's happy to leave the day to day monotony to someone else. I grew up with a dad kind of like him, he would take me on long bike rides on the weekends, and in general be fun and loving for chunks of weekend time and not part of week-day life, I knew he was "there" for me etc....but I got all of my day to day needs and security from my mom. I honestly think at the end of the day my dad is the only one that suffered from it, I know he loves and supports me but I will never be as close to him as I am with my mom and I think he's a bit lonely now that he is retired and has time for family but doesn't have the very close connection. So yes my life could have been a little better if I had a deeper emotional connection with my dad, but childhood was still really good b/c all of my emotional / logistical / security etc needs were still met by my mom and a lot of happy kids have family dynamics like that.

Uh, you married your dad. That is the ramification of having a DH like yours. Do you want your kids to think that is the best example of a father? He wants to sleep in instead of spend time with his kids? You basically have repeated the same mistake because you were conditioned to think this is how it’s supposed to be.

ok and here I am - given I can't force him to change what would you suggest? Continue cajoling him all the time? Give up on that and just leave it to him to do what he wants? Divorce? Something I'm not thinking of?

Yes. Because it works.

Not for her. Look, at some point we all have a breaking point. Continually cajoling an unenthusiastic spouse is soul-crushing. She sounds committed to the marriage and to parenting, while still prioritizing her own happiness. That's healthy.

OP if I read correctly, your kids are 1 and 2. It's a total moving target right now, and you're more in survival mode than you think. My DD is 6 and just the other day I laid back down after dropping her off at school (I'm an ER doc) and remembered how hard the mornings were when she was a baby and I'd be "on" starting at 6a, every day, no matter how bad the night before was. It gets so much better/easier, no matter what your DH does, just because the logistics of parenting improve as they age.

I'm also of the mindset that taking your hands off the wheel may eventually cause your high-achieving husband to step up (emphasis on eventually. Nothing will happen right away), esp as the kids age.

Good luck, and kudos to you for playing the long game. I was a single parent from jump, and I've seen several of these situations play out among my married friends. People who take a measured approach like yours generally are they happiest, regardless of outcome.

This is OP - yeah some days it works and others he just reacts like a teenager rebelling against mom and refusing. It's not like after one nice request to get out of bed and join us for the zoo he cheerfully does it, its 30 minutes of trying to stay cheerful and positive doing it to his grouchiness back and then if I'm successful in getting him to go 2 hours later he'll say something like "Wow, I always feel so much better when I get out of bed and do something!" like that's shocking news every time. I feel like instead of him having to take responsibility for his own happiness it creates a soul crushing dynamic for me of having to try to talk him into it and a parent/child dynamic for him where he can rebel and put blame on me instead of taking responsibility for himself.

This all sounds so miserable - but day to day I'm not unhappy, I just can't handle it all anymore. When he is engaged we all have a lot of fun, day to day our life isn't miserable, I just am so tired of having to prod him along and its painful to have to do that. Part of me wants to just stop caring / fighting it and remove that whole day to day conflict from our lives by arranging my life around who he is. I'd rather be able to balance my own fairly demanding job with homelife, but if I think I'd rather just accept that and scale back some and stop excepting him to be able to carry some of the home front load without management. I'm not sure I can do it though and truly let the hope / resentment go.

am just considering stopping asking anything of him. I'd hire more help to take care of chores at home, make a career change so I could have the time to meet all the kids' needs, and just leave it to DH to engage with our family or not as he chooses. I don't think the kids would suffer, he'd be like a 1980s dad, he can be super fun and engaged when he's not distracted by work and would spend a couple hours focused on them during the weekend, and I'd fully take on ensuring their need for stability, emotional support, and logistical needs are met.

That's exactly what I did. I shared plans and then it was up to my spouse. It worked great. Sometimes I was solo with the kids - probably most of the time. And, sometimes we did things as a family. I took my kids on vacations by myself - even out of the country. I took them camping by myself. I took them to NYC at Christmas alone and everyone thought I was nuts because I had three young kids. But, it was the better alternative for us. My kids are older now and I have no regrets. I have great relationships with them and great memories with them. And, once I accepted that this is who we were, I stopped having stress in my house over it.

I'm assuming he's in big law?

Honestly he's doing better than most big law attorneys. Not that its stated explicitly, but jobs and salaries like that IS an exchange for your life. You either get money or a husband, you can't have both. Are you willing to give up the money?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that your kids will not suffer because of your DHs issues is insane. Divorce or not he is not a present father and that will have ramifications.

While they'd ideally have a more day to day engaged dad, I don't think they will "suffer". He can be a super fun dad and in an emergency he'd go to the end of the earth for him. In the day to day he's happy to leave the day to day monotony to someone else. I grew up with a dad kind of like him, he would take me on long bike rides on the weekends, and in general be fun and loving for chunks of weekend time and not part of week-day life, I knew he was "there" for me etc....but I got all of my day to day needs and security from my mom. I honestly think at the end of the day my dad is the only one that suffered from it, I know he loves and supports me but I will never be as close to him as I am with my mom and I think he's a bit lonely now that he is retired and has time for family but doesn't have the very close connection. So yes my life could have been a little better if I had a deeper emotional connection with my dad, but childhood was still really good b/c all of my emotional / logistical / security etc needs were still met by my mom and a lot of happy kids have family dynamics like that.

Uh, you married your dad. That is the ramification of having a DH like yours. Do you want your kids to think that is the best example of a father? He wants to sleep in instead of spend time with his kids? You basically have repeated the same mistake because you were conditioned to think this is how it’s supposed to be.

ok and here I am - given I can't force him to change what would you suggest? Continue cajoling him all the time? Give up on that and just leave it to him to do what he wants? Divorce? Something I'm not thinking of?

Yes. Because it works.

Not for her. Look, at some point we all have a breaking point. Continually cajoling an unenthusiastic spouse is soul-crushing. She sounds committed to the marriage and to parenting, while still prioritizing her own happiness. That's healthy.

OP if I read correctly, your kids are 1 and 2. It's a total moving target right now, and you're more in survival mode than you think. My DD is 6 and just the other day I laid back down after dropping her off at school (I'm an ER doc) and remembered how hard the mornings were when she was a baby and I'd be "on" starting at 6a, every day, no matter how bad the night before was. It gets so much better/easier, no matter what your DH does, just because the logistics of parenting improve as they age.

I'm also of the mindset that taking your hands off the wheel may eventually cause your high-achieving husband to step up (emphasis on eventually. Nothing will happen right away), esp as the kids age.

Good luck, and kudos to you for playing the long game. I was a single parent from jump, and I've seen several of these situations play out among my married friends. People who take a measured approach like yours generally are they happiest, regardless of outcome.

Anonymous wrote:Go for it. Your plan sounds totally fine.

Yep

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that your kids will not suffer because of your DHs issues is insane. Divorce or not he is not a present father and that will have ramifications.

While they'd ideally have a more day to day engaged dad, I don't think they will "suffer". He can be a super fun dad and in an emergency he'd go to the end of the earth for him. In the day to day he's happy to leave the day to day monotony to someone else. I grew up with a dad kind of like him, he would take me on long bike rides on the weekends, and in general be fun and loving for chunks of weekend time and not part of week-day life, I knew he was "there" for me etc....but I got all of my day to day needs and security from my mom. I honestly think at the end of the day my dad is the only one that suffered from it, I know he loves and supports me but I will never be as close to him as I am with my mom and I think he's a bit lonely now that he is retired and has time for family but doesn't have the very close connection. So yes my life could have been a little better if I had a deeper emotional connection with my dad, but childhood was still really good b/c all of my emotional / logistical / security etc needs were still met by my mom and a lot of happy kids have family dynamics like that.

Uh, you married your dad. That is the ramification of having a DH like yours. Do you want your kids to think that is the best example of a father? He wants to sleep in instead of spend time with his kids? You basically have repeated the same mistake because you were conditioned to think this is how it’s supposed to be.

ok and here I am - given I can't force him to change what would you suggest? Continue cajoling him all the time? Give up on that and just leave it to him to do what he wants? Divorce? Something I'm not thinking of?

Yes. Because it works.