Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

Bingo and curved against other best of the best, proven 98-99 percentile classmates. Earning a few Bs and Cs can shatter your pre-med dreams -- all because the top 20 college chooses to curve out half of the pre-meds. How is that good for the nation's health care?

Have you ever seen the differences between a A/A- student and a B/C+ student? They are not comparable.

Anonymous wrote:My nephew was accepted to a couple of top 10 universities and to an Ivy that he heard had grade deflation- especially in premed classes. He declined those schools because he has always dreamed of being a doctor and knew med school was expensive. So instead he went to a state school that paid for his tuition, room and board, and had an honors program because he was a National Merit scholar. He got straight A's in pre-med classes there and now in med school in the US. Many of his really brilliant high school friends did not do well in pre-med classes at their top 10 universities and now can't go to med school in the US. He said many were much smarter than he was.

Exactly! On DCUM only the top universities will do.

But if your smart kid wants to be a doctor, he will have a much better chance of realizing his dreams if he goes goes to a lower rated school. And the bonus is that it is either a cheaper state school or a private school that gives considerable aid to really outstanding students so there is more to spend on med school.

As for your DS's friends, if they really want to be doctors, they have the option of a post bac program to redo the premed classes. Depending on what their GPA otherwise is and their MCAT scores, they would have a good shot at a DO program at least, if that is not beneath consideration of a top 10 kid. (It is definitely not impossible for a DO graduate to land a prestigious residency.)

My nephew was accepted to a couple of top 10 universities and to an Ivy that he heard had grade deflation- especially in premed classes. He declined those schools because he has always dreamed of being a doctor and knew med school was expensive. So instead he went to a state school that paid for his tuition, room and board, and had an honors program because he was a National Merit scholar. He got straight A's in pre-med classes there and now in med school in the US. Many of his really brilliant high school friends did not do well in pre-med classes at their top 10 universities and now can't go to med school in the US. He said many were much smarter than he was.

Anonymous wrote:
I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

Bingo and curved against other best of the best, proven 98-99 percentile classmates. Earning a few Bs and Cs can shatter your pre-med dreams -- all because the top 20 college chooses to curve out half of the pre-meds. How is that good for the nation's health care?

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

You raise an interesting point.

The schools that are listed as the top medical schools are all research schools. Getting into them typically requires a lot of research experience, including being listed as an author on a published paper (or more). Med schools below this tier put far more emphasis on a lot of clinical medical experience and community volunteering, activities that tend to help develop soft skills.

The personality needed to be a top researcher is very different from what you need to be an outstanding clinical doctor. There, an ability to listen to a patient is a very important skill. As the saying goes, if you listen to a patient long enough, he will tell you what is wrong with him.

The research inclined tend to be short in this skill set, and those were likely the type of students you were encountering in your top flight medical school. It likely would be different at a mid tier medical school; these often do not have the considerable resources needed to be an upper echelon research institution and, so, the focus is more clinical.

Another interesting point is that the lowest subscore for most people taking the MCAT is not in the science sections, but the critical analysis and reasoning section (CARS). This section is the one in which students who are really good in liberal arts shine and STEM students struggle with.

Canadian med schools put a huge emphasis on the CARS in deciding whom to admit because they believe it is indicative of a more well rounded student who likely has better social skills than a very STEM heavy applicant. US medical schools, while often setting a minimum subscore for each section, are very inclined to let high scores in the science sections make up for a lower score in the CARS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the person who said they have encountered doctors "from places you have never heard of".....speak for yourself.

Not all Americans are insular and ignorant.

+1. What place have you "never heard of?"

Can you name the top colleges and medical schools in Iraq and India and Bangladesh?
How do they stack up to the Ivies, the ACC and BigTen?

Anonymous wrote:I guess that on a website where people think anything less than ivy league is practically a death sentence...why would we expect them to be open minded about schools with names they can't pronounce.

They live according to guideposts others have planted, status markers that will validate who they are and what they have accomplished. These types of people are overly dependent on the opinions of pundits and rankings rather than basing their judgements on actual experiences or data.

Second and Third world colleges and medical schools are as good as Northwestern, Penn and UVA? And ESL doctors are superior to King's English speaking American kids? Is that really what you're saying?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

They're being weeded out because they aren't good, not because of curved classes. My God, what sort of entitled snowflakes do you want in charge of your medical care? I certainly don't want a doctor who can't even handle a curved class.

All of my dd's college friends speak perfect English, perfect grades in high school, perfect AP scores, and 98-99 percentile on their SAT – yet 50% of them are weeded out of pre-med just because? The foreign trained MDs I've had are awful, to put it mildly. No chance the average imported MD is as smart, accomplished and suited to be an MD as my daughter's classmates. And foreign colleges and med schools don't come close to a top American U. We have the best students, we have the best colleges, the best hospitals ... yet we weed out most of the kids who want to be doctors? It makes no sense!

I guess that on a website where people think anything less than ivy league is practically a death sentence...why would we expect them to be open minded about schools with names they can't pronounce.

They live according to guideposts others have planted, status markers that will validate who they are and what they have accomplished. These types of people are overly dependent on the opinions of pundits and rankings rather than basing their judgements on actual experiences or data.

Anonymous wrote:And to the person who said they have encountered doctors "from places you have never heard of".....speak for yourself.

Not all Americans are insular and ignorant.

+1. The ignorance and anti-immigrant sentiment is astounding on this thread.

I wonder whether some people here are mistaking immigrant doctors for foreign medical grads. I know a ton of immigrant doctors (also married to one) who attended med school school here; many were raised in the US. My spouse moved here in middle school. I can only think of a couple who completed med school elsewhere—both of them were actually raised in the US.

But of course, most of these folks have funny names, and some come from “places you have never heard of,” so perhaps there are some assumptions going on about the quality of their education and training.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

Sorry, but I’d take a skilled clinician over “soft skills” any day with regards to my health and the health of my family. I could care less if my doctor was Mr. or Ms. super friendly in school if their grades were subpar to the introvert from wherever but that’s sharp as a tack.

Soft skills are a bonus not a necessity.

+1 a million times over

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

They're being weeded out because they aren't good, not because of curved classes. My God, what sort of entitled snowflakes do you want in charge of your medical care? I certainly don't want a doctor who can't even handle a curved class.

Not really. They are weeded out because of the shortage of residencies. There’s enough demand for more doctors but the infrastructure is not in place provide the supply—partially because it is in the AMA’s interest to keep the supply of doctors lower and keep salaries higher

If your kid can't even handle premed courses, she has no business becoming a doctor.

I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

I absolutely do not want a doctor who can't even handle the not-very-hard work required in undergraduate pre-med degrees. My God. Stop trying to blame harder-working, smarter foreign students for the failure of your own child.

You sound awful

Says the angry racist to the person pointing out the truth.

That should be angry entitled racist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

They're being weeded out because they aren't good, not because of curved classes. My God, what sort of entitled snowflakes do you want in charge of your medical care? I certainly don't want a doctor who can't even handle a curved class.

Not really. They are weeded out because of the shortage of residencies. There’s enough demand for more doctors but the infrastructure is not in place provide the supply—partially because it is in the AMA’s interest to keep the supply of doctors lower and keep salaries higher

If your kid can't even handle premed courses, she has no business becoming a doctor.

I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

I absolutely do not want a doctor who can't even handle the not-very-hard work required in undergraduate pre-med degrees. My God. Stop trying to blame harder-working, smarter foreign students for the failure of your own child.

You sound awful

Says the angry racist to the person pointing out the truth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

They're being weeded out because they aren't good, not because of curved classes. My God, what sort of entitled snowflakes do you want in charge of your medical care? I certainly don't want a doctor who can't even handle a curved class.

Not really. They are weeded out because of the shortage of residencies. There’s enough demand for more doctors but the infrastructure is not in place provide the supply—partially because it is in the AMA’s interest to keep the supply of doctors lower and keep salaries higher

Disagree with this. There is a shortage of med school spaces. This is why foreign medical graduates are able to get residencies in the U.S.--there are more residencies opening up each year than there are US med school graduates to fill them.

There is major weeding out among the premed students applying to med schools--only 40% get an acceptance.

The article OP posted is about weeding out even before one gets to the applicant phase, that is, among pre-meds. If that weeding out did not take place among premeds we would see an even lower percentage of med school applicants being admitted. The bottle neck is at the med schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

They're being weeded out because they aren't good, not because of curved classes. My God, what sort of entitled snowflakes do you want in charge of your medical care? I certainly don't want a doctor who can't even handle a curved class.

Not really. They are weeded out because of the shortage of residencies. There’s enough demand for more doctors but the infrastructure is not in place provide the supply—partially because it is in the AMA’s interest to keep the supply of doctors lower and keep salaries higher

If your kid can't even handle premed courses, she has no business becoming a doctor.

I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

I absolutely do not want a doctor who can't even handle the not-very-hard work required in undergraduate pre-med degrees. My God. Stop trying to blame harder-working, smarter foreign students for the failure of your own child.

You sound awful