Anonymous
11/30/2018 13:20
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You say he has an academic job? Is he an assistant professor, who will be working toward tenure for the next six years? I am a tenured prof, so I am surrounded by other academics, and I don't know a single male academic who was the default parent while working toward tenure. In fact, the most successful mid-career scholars in my field are the men whose wives SAH or have less-intense careers. The thing about academia is that the work is infinite, and the standards are vague. You could always collect just one more set of data, publish just one more article, etc., and you never feel like it's enough until you've got tenure. And then you're working toward full. I know there are a lot of jobs that you can never "turn off" but academia is unusual simply because the work is self-driven and limitless.
So, I'd be thinking about how he's going to resist that pressure to publish more and more and more and focus on running the household while you pursue your career.
The research shows that the most likely person to get tenure is a married male, the most unlikely is a married female. (Unmarried men and unmarried women fall in between.) The typical explanation for these differences is that men are successful because women are running their personal lives, and women are unsuccessful professionally because they're having to run their family life too.
So, is your husband going to step outside of these well established patterns in academia and somehow be a default parent and a successful scholar? There are certainly examples of men who have done it, but it takes commitment on their part to buck the dominant trends.
A man who only bring home scraps of bacon for his dutiful wife to cook up? Not attractive. If you are going to be a slave to your job you better bring in some money. otherwise you are just a selfish prick.
+1
More and more this is how I feel. It’s getting harder and harder not to see having kids in this marriage as a truly raw deal. I am still weighing it, but it is highly likely that I don’t have kids with him and we divorce in a few years when I feel that I am in solid financial footing. I may not meet someone else in time, but I am starting to feel at peace with that given how unattractive my current situation is to me. -OP
You seem generally unhappy now, and also haven't once expressed that you would really like to have a baby. I think that's the conversation you need to have with yourself - do you want to be a mother? If you do, then you need to figure out how that happens.
A baby certainly isn't going to make your marriage easier or better.
You are right. That is why I am starting threads like this and talking to as many people as I can. I really should have been honest with myself that marrying him, even though I did love him, was not a good life choice for me given different values. I don't want to make another big mistake, so I am thinking very carefully about what to do next.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 13:10
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You say he has an academic job? Is he an assistant professor, who will be working toward tenure for the next six years? I am a tenured prof, so I am surrounded by other academics, and I don't know a single male academic who was the default parent while working toward tenure. In fact, the most successful mid-career scholars in my field are the men whose wives SAH or have less-intense careers. The thing about academia is that the work is infinite, and the standards are vague. You could always collect just one more set of data, publish just one more article, etc., and you never feel like it's enough until you've got tenure. And then you're working toward full. I know there are a lot of jobs that you can never "turn off" but academia is unusual simply because the work is self-driven and limitless.
So, I'd be thinking about how he's going to resist that pressure to publish more and more and more and focus on running the household while you pursue your career.
The research shows that the most likely person to get tenure is a married male, the most unlikely is a married female. (Unmarried men and unmarried women fall in between.) The typical explanation for these differences is that men are successful because women are running their personal lives, and women are unsuccessful professionally because they're having to run their family life too.
So, is your husband going to step outside of these well established patterns in academia and somehow be a default parent and a successful scholar? There are certainly examples of men who have done it, but it takes commitment on their part to buck the dominant trends.
A man who only bring home scraps of bacon for his dutiful wife to cook up? Not attractive. If you are going to be a slave to your job you better bring in some money. otherwise you are just a selfish prick.
+1
More and more this is how I feel. It’s getting harder and harder not to see having kids in this marriage as a truly raw deal. I am still weighing it, but it is highly likely that I don’t have kids with him and we divorce in a few years when I feel that I am in solid financial footing. I may not meet someone else in time, but I am starting to feel at peace with that given how unattractive my current situation is to me. -OP
You seem generally unhappy now, and also haven't once expressed that you would really like to have a baby. I think that's the conversation you need to have with yourself - do you want to be a mother? If you do, then you need to figure out how that happens.
A baby certainly isn't going to make your marriage easier or better.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:48
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You say he has an academic job? Is he an assistant professor, who will be working toward tenure for the next six years? I am a tenured prof, so I am surrounded by other academics, and I don't know a single male academic who was the default parent while working toward tenure. In fact, the most successful mid-career scholars in my field are the men whose wives SAH or have less-intense careers. The thing about academia is that the work is infinite, and the standards are vague. You could always collect just one more set of data, publish just one more article, etc., and you never feel like it's enough until you've got tenure. And then you're working toward full. I know there are a lot of jobs that you can never "turn off" but academia is unusual simply because the work is self-driven and limitless.
So, I'd be thinking about how he's going to resist that pressure to publish more and more and more and focus on running the household while you pursue your career.
The research shows that the most likely person to get tenure is a married male, the most unlikely is a married female. (Unmarried men and unmarried women fall in between.) The typical explanation for these differences is that men are successful because women are running their personal lives, and women are unsuccessful professionally because they're having to run their family life too.
So, is your husband going to step outside of these well established patterns in academia and somehow be a default parent and a successful scholar? There are certainly examples of men who have done it, but it takes commitment on their part to buck the dominant trends.
A man who only bring home scraps of bacon for his dutiful wife to cook up? Not attractive. If you are going to be a slave to your job you better bring in some money. otherwise you are just a selfish prick.
+1
More and more this is how I feel. It’s getting harder and harder not to see having kids in this marriage as a truly raw deal. I am still weighing it, but it is highly likely that I don’t have kids with him and we divorce in a few years when I feel that I am in solid financial footing. I may not meet someone else in time, but I am starting to feel at peace with that given how unattractive my current situation is to me. -OP
Or have a baby with him and divorce him when the baby is still an infant. This way you don't miss out on having kids and the kid grows up with divorced parents which is NBD when you do it when they are babies. My step daughter (my DHs child from his first marriage) is doing spectacularly well. They separated when she was 3 months old. She has absolutly ZERO issues around her parents not being married. She is in her senior year of college (as a highly competitive school) is a good girl, has never been in trouble and is mature and delightful. I could not be more proud of the woman she has become. Where you really screw things up is getting divorced when the kids are aware of their surroundings.
But yea, I would not find a man attractive who is buried in his low paying career at the expense of my career and my financial freedom. It simply is not a guy I could even stomach sex with.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:41
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Doing the job thing is easier when children are younger, you can find care to cover things relatively easily - nanny should be the ideal in this situation since DH has a job that will likely have odd hours. It also takes a year or so to have a kid. DW needs to understand the DH will do things differently than she would have, but if everyone is alive and somewhat happy at the end of the day/week/month. It will work. Getting a house cleaner helps quite a bit too. DW also has to be okay with smaller amounts of time she will have with the child and that feeling will likely change once the child is born. It will may be very difficult for her.Anonymous wrote:Long story short:
DW was a trailing spouse for first part of marriage for much longer than anticipated. Now DH has his desired job (academic), and DW is trying to get her career back on track after 4 years of disjointed work and freelancing. DW is 34, and it is time to have a baby, but DW doesn't want to permanently tank the possibility of a decent paying career. Therefore, DW wants DH to take on at minimum 50% childcare responsibilities while she tries to get promoted and work her way up the corporate ladder to a middle manager level. DH claims to be on board, but DW is concerned that in practice things will fall apart, in large part because she reads all of the sob stories on this board.
What say you?
If you do not choose the nanny route, I suggest that DW is the one who drops off and DH is the one who picks up. The parent who picks up tends to end up with more child work naturally. That also means that the DW can work late when she has to without having to coordinate ahead of time for DH to pickup. She will then have the flexibility to stay an bit of time if she is almost al the end of a project.
How is housework currently divided? Make a list now with what each person currently does and try to even it out now. Then after the child comes, if things seem to shift more to the DW, make a new list and compare again.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:39
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You say he has an academic job? Is he an assistant professor, who will be working toward tenure for the next six years? I am a tenured prof, so I am surrounded by other academics, and I don't know a single male academic who was the default parent while working toward tenure. In fact, the most successful mid-career scholars in my field are the men whose wives SAH or have less-intense careers. The thing about academia is that the work is infinite, and the standards are vague. You could always collect just one more set of data, publish just one more article, etc., and you never feel like it's enough until you've got tenure. And then you're working toward full. I know there are a lot of jobs that you can never "turn off" but academia is unusual simply because the work is self-driven and limitless.
So, I'd be thinking about how he's going to resist that pressure to publish more and more and more and focus on running the household while you pursue your career.
The research shows that the most likely person to get tenure is a married male, the most unlikely is a married female. (Unmarried men and unmarried women fall in between.) The typical explanation for these differences is that men are successful because women are running their personal lives, and women are unsuccessful professionally because they're having to run their family life too.
So, is your husband going to step outside of these well established patterns in academia and somehow be a default parent and a successful scholar? There are certainly examples of men who have done it, but it takes commitment on their part to buck the dominant trends.
A man who only bring home scraps of bacon for his dutiful wife to cook up? Not attractive. If you are going to be a slave to your job you better bring in some money. otherwise you are just a selfish prick.
+1
More and more this is how I feel. It’s getting harder and harder not to see having kids in this marriage as a truly raw deal. I am still weighing it, but it is highly likely that I don’t have kids with him and we divorce in a few years when I feel that I am in solid financial footing. I may not meet someone else in time, but I am starting to feel at peace with that given how unattractive my current situation is to me. -OP
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:36
Subject: Re:Husband as default parent?
I’d start with a conversation about paternity leave. I’ve found that dads who not only are willing but want to take time off to bond with their baby (and I mean substantial time off where they are home alone with the baby and not just a week or two after birth) make a very easy transition to being the default parent. I’m not saying a dad who doesn’t take time off can’t get there, but I think it sets both parents up to feel like either can confidently provide care for their kid. I also say this also knowing that paternity leave can have a career impact but so does default parenting. If someone isn’t willing or can’t forgo a month of work, then it’s probably an indication of priorities generally.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:28
Subject: Husband as default parent?
It worked for RBG, it can work for you.
But a small warning. Breastfeeding essentially sets women up to be the main caretakers of babies. Routines, etc are all set up in those early weeks and months. It's not impossible to shift, but it's something to be aware of.
My DH and I have a very good split. We are both committed to keeping jobs with flexible schedules. We are wary of taking jobs with lots of travel. We both take over sick days, we both do the feeding/bathing/bedtime routine. We both take time to ourselves while the other covers the home. I still do more of the *mental load* which is 100% UNSEEN WORK. He understands that, but it does tip the scales to me doing more with the kids. It's things like having a mental tally of every single item of clothing my children own and WHERE IT IS. I don't seek out to know this stuff, but I do. So I track down the hats/gloves when it gets cold out. I am watching to see when my 4 year old's pant are getting too short and I need to buy more. I am tracking sales of clothing so I don't have to spend too much on it. I am loosely remembering how often their lovies have been washed and when it's probably time to do that. I track their hair cuts and schedule that. My DH will take them, he will buy clothes, he will go to the doctor. But I track it all. Could he? YES. But I have found I actually ENJOY this stuff and I want to do it. So while I do remind him I have more mental load, I don't actually want to offload it entirely either.
But I do think the mental load is what can wear down women with higher powered careers. Because they have a hard time *not* doing these things even if their DH's would figure it out eventually.
But a small warning. Breastfeeding essentially sets women up to be the main caretakers of babies. Routines, etc are all set up in those early weeks and months. It's not impossible to shift, but it's something to be aware of.
My DH and I have a very good split. We are both committed to keeping jobs with flexible schedules. We are wary of taking jobs with lots of travel. We both take over sick days, we both do the feeding/bathing/bedtime routine. We both take time to ourselves while the other covers the home. I still do more of the *mental load* which is 100% UNSEEN WORK. He understands that, but it does tip the scales to me doing more with the kids. It's things like having a mental tally of every single item of clothing my children own and WHERE IT IS. I don't seek out to know this stuff, but I do. So I track down the hats/gloves when it gets cold out. I am watching to see when my 4 year old's pant are getting too short and I need to buy more. I am tracking sales of clothing so I don't have to spend too much on it. I am loosely remembering how often their lovies have been washed and when it's probably time to do that. I track their hair cuts and schedule that. My DH will take them, he will buy clothes, he will go to the doctor. But I track it all. Could he? YES. But I have found I actually ENJOY this stuff and I want to do it. So while I do remind him I have more mental load, I don't actually want to offload it entirely either.
But I do think the mental load is what can wear down women with higher powered careers. Because they have a hard time *not* doing these things even if their DH's would figure it out eventually.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:15
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:You say he has an academic job? Is he an assistant professor, who will be working toward tenure for the next six years? I am a tenured prof, so I am surrounded by other academics, and I don't know a single male academic who was the default parent while working toward tenure. In fact, the most successful mid-career scholars in my field are the men whose wives SAH or have less-intense careers. The thing about academia is that the work is infinite, and the standards are vague. You could always collect just one more set of data, publish just one more article, etc., and you never feel like it's enough until you've got tenure. And then you're working toward full. I know there are a lot of jobs that you can never "turn off" but academia is unusual simply because the work is self-driven and limitless.
So, I'd be thinking about how he's going to resist that pressure to publish more and more and more and focus on running the household while you pursue your career.
The research shows that the most likely person to get tenure is a married male, the most unlikely is a married female. (Unmarried men and unmarried women fall in between.) The typical explanation for these differences is that men are successful because women are running their personal lives, and women are unsuccessful professionally because they're having to run their family life too.
So, is your husband going to step outside of these well established patterns in academia and somehow be a default parent and a successful scholar? There are certainly examples of men who have done it, but it takes commitment on their part to buck the dominant trends.
A man who only bring home scraps of bacon for his dutiful wife to cook up? Not attractive. If you are going to be a slave to your job you better bring in some money. otherwise you are just a selfish prick.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:12
Subject: Re:Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:After showing up at the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong day multiple times she will take over all family planning chores and he will claim she is controlling.
She will do 75%, he will do 25% but in his mind it will be 50/50.
Yeah, it will be 75/25 after she deletes all credit for anything he does, and gives herself double credit for what she does (plus triple credit for all the made-up bullshit like "emotional labor").
It will be 75% when he thinks moving the clothes from the washer to the dryer is = to folding and putting it away.
It will be 75% when he thinks showing up to the school play is = to making the costume for the play
Men's math is historically bad.
+1. There's a SAHD in a SAHP group I'm in, and even without working he can't handle running a household. His wife had to hire a nanny to take care of the kids with him.
Jeez, that's pathetic. I'm a DH and what I accomplish in one hour, it would take multiple hours for my DW. And I do all the cooking (and cleanup).
Yes, there are many Dads out there like me because I know them.
Raises hand! my DH is like you. He is so much faster at everything that I am (and he works). Like physically faster and more efficient. I give him all the credit in the world. he does not cook ( I enjoy cooking!), but he does a ton of other stuff and I'm amazed at all that he can accomplish. The other day I ran out for an hour with the kids to buy winter coats and I got home and the entire house was straightened from top to bottom, the fridge cleaned out, and a load of laundry going. It was great! We ended up sitting on the sofa and all watching our show (we watch Eureka as a family). Because neither of us are lazy, our lives are pretty relaxed and we have lots of time as a family.
Anonymous
11/30/2018 08:06
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Long story short:
DW was a trailing spouse for first part of marriage for much longer than anticipated. Now DH has his desired job (academic), and DW is trying to get her career back on track after 4 years of disjointed work and freelancing. DW is 34, and it is time to have a baby, but DW doesn't want to permanently tank the possibility of a decent paying career. Therefore, DW wants DH to take on at minimum 50% childcare responsibilities while she tries to get promoted and work her way up the corporate ladder to a middle manager level. DH claims to be on board, but DW is concerned that in practice things will fall apart, in large part because she reads all of the sob stories on this board.
What say you?
I have no idea and cannot comment on your marriage. Both DH and I have solid careers, making well over 500k combined. He is in sales and works from home and has the most glorious flexible work schedule. He does probably 70% of the domestic duties (shuttling kids around, making and taking kids to doctors appointments, doing laundry, getting the kids homework done). This is mainly because I'm physically in an office 3-4 days a week and when I'm having downtime at work taking to co-workers, he is putting in a load of laundry or running a kid to the orthodontist. I just do not have the hours in the day that he has to devote to domestic life. If he was not able to do these things and had my similar work schedule, we would simply have to outsource more or hire an AuPair and and someone to do the laundry
I suppose I just married a normal respectful human being who is fully aware that being a father take effort.
Anonymous
11/29/2018 22:53
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:I say in less it is what HE wants you are setting yourself up for an issue. I think you should hire a nanny.
I mean...this can be good advice for some, but I am not sure this is helpful to an academic and a 30-something starting a career. This is more of a "throw money at the issue" solution for an unequal division in labor, which unless OP has not mentioned is a possibility, seems a touch out of reach.
Anonymous
11/29/2018 22:06
Subject: Re:Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:After showing up at the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong day multiple times she will take over all family planning chores and he will claim she is controlling.
She will do 75%, he will do 25% but in his mind it will be 50/50.
Yeah, it will be 75/25 after she deletes all credit for anything he does, and gives herself double credit for what she does (plus triple credit for all the made-up bullshit like "emotional labor").[/quote]
LOL!!! totally true!!!!! I love it.
Anonymous
11/29/2018 21:30
Subject: Re:Husband as default parent?
My DH is definitely at least a 50% parent. That being said, there are some things that I want to do that also mean more time off work for me (I like to take them to all their doctor’s appointments, for example- bc I have slight medical/health anxiety and DH won’t get all the info I need.) But that is my own neurosis. If you are a chill mom, you can definitely make it work. But you can’t have it both ways- you have to be able to let DH do some things that you may not like or may not be exactly how you would have done. Like the days he gets them ready for school, they rarely match. But I keep quiet.
Anonymous
11/29/2018 21:29
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You say he has an academic job? Is he an assistant professor, who will be working toward tenure for the next six years? I am a tenured prof, so I am surrounded by other academics, and I don't know a single male academic who was the default parent while working toward tenure. In fact, the most successful mid-career scholars in my field are the men whose wives SAH or have less-intense careers. The thing about academia is that the work is infinite, and the standards are vague. You could always collect just one more set of data, publish just one more article, etc., and you never feel like it's enough until you've got tenure. And then you're working toward full. I know there are a lot of jobs that you can never "turn off" but academia is unusual simply because the work is self-driven and limitless.
So, I'd be thinking about how he's going to resist that pressure to publish more and more and more and focus on running the household while you pursue your career.
The research shows that the most likely person to get tenure is a married male, the most unlikely is a married female. (Unmarried men and unmarried women fall in between.) The typical explanation for these differences is that men are successful because women are running their personal lives, and women are unsuccessful professionally because they're having to run their family life too.
So, is your husband going to step outside of these well established patterns in academia and somehow be a default parent and a successful scholar? There are certainly examples of men who have done it, but it takes commitment on their part to buck the dominant trends.
Yes he is an assistant professor. I have a hard time with the idea of keeping a light career to support an academic career which frankly is not very lucrative. He claims he can easily work until 70 at top pay, but this does not help me sleep at night. What if he gets sick?
He plans to go for tenure at the end of next year if he gets an NSF grant, and has been encouraged to go early by the department. He is 36 and has many, many publications and citations. What he doesn’t have yet is a big grant.
Anyway, i can outearn him fairly soon if I am not mommy tracked, and this matters to me because I highly value financial security.
Oof. An academic who is trying to get NSF grants? That is not the kind of scholar who can usually achieve work-life balance. If he wants to convince you that he could be the default parent, I’d ask him to describe 2-3 scholars who he admires who prioritize their families. Ask him really concrete questions about how they structure their work lives to do things like drop offs and pick ups, how often they travel for conferences/lectures/research, etc., and then ask him how he would do the same things. He needs to think really concretely about how he would detach from his work enough to raise kids.
FTR, you’re totally right that academia is not remunerative enough to merit the hours many people put into it. But it’s a calling for some people. Anyone who made the financial sacrifices to go into academia probably isn’t going to immediately recognize the sense in scaling back his own career so that his spouse can boost the HHI.
Wow. All of this. I have nothing to add.
-former academic
Anonymous
11/29/2018 21:24
Subject: Husband as default parent?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You say he has an academic job? Is he an assistant professor, who will be working toward tenure for the next six years? I am a tenured prof, so I am surrounded by other academics, and I don't know a single male academic who was the default parent while working toward tenure. In fact, the most successful mid-career scholars in my field are the men whose wives SAH or have less-intense careers. The thing about academia is that the work is infinite, and the standards are vague. You could always collect just one more set of data, publish just one more article, etc., and you never feel like it's enough until you've got tenure. And then you're working toward full. I know there are a lot of jobs that you can never "turn off" but academia is unusual simply because the work is self-driven and limitless.
So, I'd be thinking about how he's going to resist that pressure to publish more and more and more and focus on running the household while you pursue your career.
The research shows that the most likely person to get tenure is a married male, the most unlikely is a married female. (Unmarried men and unmarried women fall in between.) The typical explanation for these differences is that men are successful because women are running their personal lives, and women are unsuccessful professionally because they're having to run their family life too.
So, is your husband going to step outside of these well established patterns in academia and somehow be a default parent and a successful scholar? There are certainly examples of men who have done it, but it takes commitment on their part to buck the dominant trends.
Yes he is an assistant professor. I have a hard time with the idea of keeping a light career to support an academic career which frankly is not very lucrative. He claims he can easily work until 70 at top pay, but this does not help me sleep at night. What if he gets sick?
He plans to go for tenure at the end of next year if he gets an NSF grant, and has been encouraged to go early by the department. He is 36 and has many, many publications and citations. What he doesn’t have yet is a big grant.
Anyway, i can outearn him fairly soon if I am not mommy tracked, and this matters to me because I highly value financial security.
Oof. An academic who is trying to get NSF grants? That is not the kind of scholar who can usually achieve work-life balance. If he wants to convince you that he could be the default parent, I’d ask him to describe 2-3 scholars who he admires who prioritize their families. Ask him really concrete questions about how they structure their work lives to do things like drop offs and pick ups, how often they travel for conferences/lectures/research, etc., and then ask him how he would do the same things. He needs to think really concretely about how he would detach from his work enough to raise kids.
FTR, you’re totally right that academia is not remunerative enough to merit the hours many people put into it. But it’s a calling for some people. Anyone who made the financial sacrifices to go into academia probably isn’t going to immediately recognize the sense in scaling back his own career so that his spouse can boost the HHI.