Anonymous wrote:Another question is why refs have ARs that they refuse to acknowledge? How many games are you at where the AR has his/her flag up for an offside call, and every parent there has to scream at the ref to look at the AR. Or, when the AR, who definitely has the better field position to judge something, and calls it, only to have the out of shape ref come panting down the field moments later, and overturn what he/she clearly could not see? That kind of stuff is infuriating.

As a ref, one of the hardest things to remember is to constantly look over to the AR during the run of play, and it's really easy to miss an offside flag when you're watching a fast play develop.
In the higher levels, the ARs use electronic flags, with a button that sends a signal to a CR's armband, which buzzes and vibrates.
If I don't notice the offside flag up, it's one of the few times where I'm happy if parents yell at me.

As for why CRs don't use their ARs better in general, I'd say it's a combination of inexperienced ARs that the centers don't really trust, inexperienced CRs that feel like they'll look weak if they don't make all the calls themselves, and egotistical older CRs that simply don't use the help they need.

Another question is why refs have ARs that they refuse to acknowledge? How many games are you at where the AR has his/her flag up for an offside call, and every parent there has to scream at the ref to look at the AR. Or, when the AR, who definitely has the better field position to judge something, and calls it, only to have the out of shape ref come panting down the field moments later, and overturn what he/she clearly could not see? That kind of stuff is infuriating.

Anonymous wrote:Are the refs ever reviewed/observed by other refs? I feel like it's a job that they can do REALLY poorly and still be compensated and do so for 20 years. While I don't advocate harassment, I do think that some refs are lazy, some don't know the rules of the game, etc., and they should be subject to review. I've been on the sidelines of thousands of soccer games.and occasionally wondered if there was a reviewing body watching the game, would that referee still have a job tomorrow? I can absolutely see why some people get angry with referees. Maybe not over a bad offsides call but, for instance, when they aren't calling fouls and play is out of control.

If every bad ref was kicked out, the parents would be forced to ref most of the games.
That would be fun.

I think the ref should have to wear a shock collar and a few parents on each team should have buttons.

Anonymous wrote:Are the refs ever reviewed/observed by other refs? I feel like it's a job that they can do REALLY poorly and still be compensated and do so for 20 years. While I don't advocate harassment, I do think that some refs are lazy, some don't know the rules of the game, etc., and they should be subject to review. I've been on the sidelines of thousands of soccer games.and occasionally wondered if there was a reviewing body watching the game, would that referee still have a job tomorrow? I can absolutely see why some people get angry with referees. Maybe not over a bad offsides call but, for instance, when they aren't calling fouls and play is out of control.

Disregard. I had missed an entire page of responses and am now seeing them.

Are the refs ever reviewed/observed by other refs? I feel like it's a job that they can do REALLY poorly and still be compensated and do so for 20 years. While I don't advocate harassment, I do think that some refs are lazy, some don't know the rules of the game, etc., and they should be subject to review. I've been on the sidelines of thousands of soccer games.and occasionally wondered if there was a reviewing body watching the game, would that referee still have a job tomorrow? I can absolutely see why some people get angry with referees. Maybe not over a bad offsides call but, for instance, when they aren't calling fouls and play is out of control.

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is the correct website:

reffeedback.com

Thanks.

I managed to find the link to see if we've received anything. I had nothing, so I don't know if we get a notification when feedback arrives or not. SoccerRef might know.

Sounds like a good idea, in that it lets parents vent in better way.
Can't imagine any ref actually taking the comments seriously though.

Agreed that it's a good way for parents to vent. It's a helpful tool for team managers trying to control sideline behavior, to be able to tell parents it'll do more good to post a negative review than to yell and scream during the game.

Whether the refs themselves take the comments seriously is probably an individual thing. It would be most useful as part of an overall program of assessment, evaluation and improvement - whether by the leagues, state bodies, whoever is responsible for re-certification?

The comments that might be taken seriously are those that recur frequently. For example, one negative review saying the a ref doesn't know the offside rule wouldn't (and shouldn't) make a difference. But if a ref is consistently being called out for incorrect or missed offside calls, at a rate that is significantly disproportionate to other refs in the same age group / league, that should raise a red flag. Same would go for other more important issues like being overly permissive or restrictive when it comes to fouls, ability to control a game, having a poor demeanor, timeliness, and overall professionalism.

If every coach submitted a review of the ref after every game, and the refs knew that such reviews were being looked at, it would provide significant motivation for improvement if there were specific areas of concern. At the very least, I don't see how it could hurt.

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is the correct website:

reffeedback.com

Thanks.

I managed to find the link to see if we've received anything. I had nothing, so I don't know if we get a notification when feedback arrives or not. SoccerRef might know.

Sounds like a good idea, in that it lets parents vent in better way.
Can't imagine any ref actually taking the comments seriously though.

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) The NCSL has a great referee feedback program that not enough people know about. Here is the link: http://www.ncsl-soccer.com/ncsl-referee-feedback-2018. I urge all parents to utilize it every game. That way (hopefully), good refs get rewarded, and bad ones don't.

The link is busted. Do you know if it's anywhere else on the site? I'd be curious to see it now that I've reffed a few games (well, assistant ref). The only controversial call I had was a very close offside call on which I was perfectly positioned. (That's not always the case -- a 15-year-old at full sprint is going to be faster than I am.) But aside from one parent, everyone seemed OK with it. Coincidentally, I wound up chatting with the coach of the affected team a few days later on something totally different, and I mentioned the call. No problem.

2) Pay more. Generally speaking, I've noticed the quality of reffing goes up the more they are getting paid. NCSL < EDP < DA. Most weekends I am watching at least one DA game and 2 NCSL games, and the difference in quality is striking. The DA refs are really quite good, and consistently so (consequently, they get much less abuse, even considering a very amped up sideline atmosphere). In the NCSL, sad to say but a really good ref is the exception not the rule.

I'm trying to remember whether I saw any EDP games pop up in the ref assignor pool this year. I wound up doing a game with a U13 DA team because they entered the WAGS tournament. Parents were ... a little unrestrained in their comments. But I'm certainly not going to be called in to do a full-fledged DA game unless I move up a couple of grades. That would require, among other things, passing a fitness test I would've struggled to pass at age 38, let alone age 48.

The DA is supposed to be developing refs as well as players. Glad to hear they're doing pretty well.

(I'd imagine, though, that the lack of abuse is partially because parents really, really don't want to piss anyone off. Heaven forbid a college coach or pro scout connects an abusive parent with a player who's borderline in that scout's assessment. Coach/scout might decide it's not worth the trouble. The *current* coach might decide it's not worth the trouble. Also, parents who played at a high level are generally calmer, so if the player has the parents' genes, those parents are going to be better than most.)

Leagues should pay more per game. VYSA and MYSA should reimburse for the cost of the course and the uniform after a certain number of games. Make it worth while for more quality refs to take time out of their weekend, and hopefully we can start to be more selective and give the refs who consistently get terrible reviews more free time.

My club is actually reimbursing me, at least partially. Pretty cool.

Overall, you're quite right about all this. I've done games I shouldn't have done given my inexperience, but we have a shortage. Twice, I checked in the teams and was preparing to be a center ref when the scheduled ref raced to the field, having battled traffic to get there from another assignment.

And I've learned that the ref who is barely moving from the center circle might be doing his fourth game of the day.

Finally, I've learned that the direction of a throw-in is the call that's least worthy of an argument. It's often a difficult call -- the ref may be shielded, and the AR may be trying to watch the ball AND stay even with the second-to-last defender, which is really higher priority. And besides, the team that gets the throw-in often turns it over anyway, at least at the lower levels where you're going to have less experienced players AND less experienced refs.

This is the correct website:

reffeedback.com

Anonymous wrote:

SoccerRef wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a very cute sentiment but again how does that make anything better in the moment? If you were giving the ref a rating after the game it’s one thing. But yelling at them during the game? What, are they supposed to be like, “oh crap, random parent, you’re right, let me reverse my call!” No. Because they made a mistake (in your eyes, mind you), they don’t take reffing seriously? Who do you think you are? I’ll say it again: as a parent, you’re inconsequential. You want to talk about owning mistakes? Dude, own your behavior at your kid’s games.

Nobody said reverse a call but yelling is always going to happen at every level. That said, quality refs get yelled at less often than bad refs do.

It's cute that you think that, as it's not remotely true.

Not the PP but I would agree, good refs get yelled at less.

Of course, from your reply it's obvious that you think you're a good ref but since still you get yelled at a lot, you think the statement isn't true. However, another possible explanation explanation is that despite having reffed for a long time, you're not that good.

Just because someone has been reffing forever does not equate to being a good ref. In fact, one of the worse referees in Northern Virginia has been doing it for probably two decades and was once the head of referees at a local club but I've lost count of how many horrible, game-changing calls I've seen him make, including several where his ARs told him he was wrong, but he's still out there, I'm sure thinking he's a good ref.

This is pretty spot on. The reality there is very little oversight of refs and their quality. Bad refs are needed more than no refs at all and since the overall supply is low there is very little accountability for the actual quality of the reffing. Bad refs just go on thinking the parents are loons and that their reffing is flawless. We all tend to overestimate our abilities, but give a mediocre ref a patch, a whistle and the last word and overestimating ones abilities is amplified. The worst refs I have ever seen all seem to have an ego attachment to the call and themselves. They are supposed to be objective and unbiased but they come into the situation feeling the need to set the tone. These are the refs who always find a way to directly address the parents in almost any way they can from the get go. They like to draw attention to themselves and find it necessary to demonstrate their control of all things in the game by seemingly working their way through the FIFA rule book enforcing obscure rules yet completely missing a goal kick call. This is the ref who feels it is his duty to tell the kids to tuck in their jerseys as some sign of respect. This is the ref who rarely leaves the center circle.

And shockingly the above ref tends to catch the most crap and complains that it is all the parents fault. This is the guy who also feels that there should be zero tolerance while having almost zero accountability.

Advice, ref a good game. Your duty is to the safe, competitive fairness of the players and the game on your field. Nobody is there to watch you ref, nobody is there to throw shade at the ref, nobody is there to bow to you, they are there to watch their kids play soccer. When you learn that the game is about the kids and not you, then you will be focusing on calling the game and not the sidelines. Yes, you will make a mistake and you will hear about it and nothing will stop that but know this, the yelling is about the call, not you personally. If you cannot draw the distinction between a sideline being upset over a bad call and actually being mad at you then you should do something else.

SoccerRef wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a very cute sentiment but again how does that make anything better in the moment? If you were giving the ref a rating after the game it’s one thing. But yelling at them during the game? What, are they supposed to be like, “oh crap, random parent, you’re right, let me reverse my call!” No. Because they made a mistake (in your eyes, mind you), they don’t take reffing seriously? Who do you think you are? I’ll say it again: as a parent, you’re inconsequential. You want to talk about owning mistakes? Dude, own your behavior at your kid’s games.

Nobody said reverse a call but yelling is always going to happen at every level. That said, quality refs get yelled at less often than bad refs do.

It's cute that you think that, as it's not remotely true.

DP, but I agree with the bolded statement above. As a parent and coach with over 15 years of experience at multiple ages and levels, I think good refs definitely get less grief - in general - than bad ones. Sure, there are some parents who yell at every ref, every game, no matter what. The only variables that affect parents like that are the score of the game and their own kids' performance. These are often the parents who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. They don't watch professional soccer, don't understand the game, but have no humility or self-awareness, so they spout off like experts and serve only to embarrass themselves and annoy everyone else.

In general though, bad refs do get yelled at much more than good refs, and there are some really, really, bad refs out there. I'm not talking about the young and inexperienced ones either. Some of the worst are the old ones. There are guys who've been reffing 20 years or more, and are no better at it than when they first started. There are many who have obviously never followed professional soccer, so their understanding of the game is based on nothing more than their own individual interpretation of the written laws. Their experience has given them more certainty and confidence, but no more competence. Refs like this are a major source of confusion and stress for inexperienced parents and players, because the rules of the game seem to change wildly from week to week. Some call a foul every time a player falls down. Some think players aren't allowed to use their arms to help shield and protect their space (I cringe every time I hear "arms down!"), and others think permissible "shoulder-to-shoulder" contact includes slamming into someone from behind at full speed and sending them flying. Even worse are the ones who alternate between extremes in the same game. Or the ones who don't even know the rules at all. Examples of things I've seen: calling offside on a goal kick; awarding a PK when a GK picks up a pass back; awarding an IFK when a GK rolls the ball out to their CB in the run of play, because "the ball needs to leave the box"; calling back a FK goal because it was taken quickly, before the whistle, even though the player never asked for space and the ref never pointed to the whistle; showing a YC to a player for standing a few feet in front of the ball on a FK - to force the player to ask for space and give his team time to set up the wall; refusing to give 10 yds on a corner kick when the kicker asks for space; refusing to allow the GK to place the ball anywhere other than on the corners of the 6-yd box during a goal kick).

It's also true that there is often a correlation between how bad the refs are and how thin their skin is. As another poster mentioned earlier, if you are getting yelled at constantly, by both sides, it might be an indication you aren't very good at your job. I once saw a ref send off 3 coaches in the same tournament (not me). Any time there was contact, he called a foul. Sometimes on the attacking player, sometimes on the defender. Sometimes he seemed like he was just taking turns. It drove everyone nuts. I later found out the first thing he asked the field marshall during check-in when he first arrived was whether he could red card the coaches.

Having said all that, I don't condone referee abuse or harassment under any circumstances. That doesn't mean being totally silent or never questioning a call. An initial emotional reaction to what is perceived to be a bad call is perfectly normal. We are human beings, and the sport does tend to inflame the passions - that's part of what makes it great. If a ref can't handle a few moans and groans from time to time, they probably shouldn't be reffing. When the comments are personal and/or threatening, the person should be ejected and banned for at least another game. When it's not quite abuse but still crosses the line into harassment in my opinion is when people just don't let it go. Under those circumstances, I'm a big fan of the "one more word and you're out" verbal warning. If the person doesn't shut up after that, they are really just asking to be kicked out.

So, what can be done to improve the general quality of reffing in the area? A couple of suggestions:

1) The NCSL has a great referee feedback program that not enough people know about. Here is the link: http://www.ncsl-soccer.com/ncsl-referee-feedback-2018. I urge all parents to utilize it every game. That way (hopefully), good refs get rewarded, and bad ones don't.

2) Pay more. Generally speaking, I've noticed the quality of reffing goes up the more they are getting paid. NCSL < EDP < DA. Most weekends I am watching at least one DA game and 2 NCSL games, and the difference in quality is striking. The DA refs are really quite good, and consistently so (consequently, they get much less abuse, even considering a very amped up sideline atmosphere). In the NCSL, sad to say but a really good ref is the exception not the rule.

Leagues should pay more per game. VYSA and MYSA should reimburse for the cost of the course and the uniform after a certain number of games. Make it worth while for more quality refs to take time out of their weekend, and hopefully we can start to be more selective and give the refs who consistently get terrible reviews more free time.

Anonymous wrote:

SoccerRef wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a very cute sentiment but again how does that make anything better in the moment? If you were giving the ref a rating after the game it’s one thing. But yelling at them during the game? What, are they supposed to be like, “oh crap, random parent, you’re right, let me reverse my call!” No. Because they made a mistake (in your eyes, mind you), they don’t take reffing seriously? Who do you think you are? I’ll say it again: as a parent, you’re inconsequential. You want to talk about owning mistakes? Dude, own your behavior at your kid’s games.

Nobody said reverse a call but yelling is always going to happen at every level. That said, quality refs get yelled at less often than bad refs do.

It's cute that you think that, as it's not remotely true.

Not the PP but I would agree, good refs get yelled at less.

Of course, from your reply it's obvious that you think you're a good ref but since still you get yelled at a lot, you think the statement isn't true. However, another possible explanation explanation is that despite having reffed for a long time, you're not that good.

Just because someone has been reffing forever does not equate to being a good ref. In fact, one of the worse referees in Northern Virginia has been doing it for probably two decades and was once the head of referees at a local club but I've lost count of how many horrible, game-changing calls I've seen him make, including several where his ARs told him he was wrong, but he's still out there, I'm sure thinking he's a good ref.

Obviously, I'm not going to waste my time arguing whether I'm a good ref or not.
I'm basing my statement on 20 years of reffing, instructing and assessing other refs. As a former State Referee, (I've since dropped down since I ref far less now that my kids play), I have passed dozens of assessments as well.
Again, I'm not going to claim that means I'm good, but I am extremely experienced and objectively speaking, highly knowledgeable of the Laws, and have reffed everything from USL, to DA, to U8.
And I can say with absolute certainty that how well a ref performs in a game has little to do with how much harassment they receive.

Certainly, as you go up in levels the harassment diminishes, simply because there are fewer parents at the game, and as has been said previously, it's easier to control players and coaches than it is to control parents.

But in general, especially in the younger age groups, I've watched refs perform basically flawlessly, and get screamed at all game by parents just as much as refs doing poorly.
And I've reffed terrible games where no one has said a word, and I've reffed strong games where parents have yelled at every call.
There is little rhyme or reason to it.

SoccerRef wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a very cute sentiment but again how does that make anything better in the moment? If you were giving the ref a rating after the game it’s one thing. But yelling at them during the game? What, are they supposed to be like, “oh crap, random parent, you’re right, let me reverse my call!” No. Because they made a mistake (in your eyes, mind you), they don’t take reffing seriously? Who do you think you are? I’ll say it again: as a parent, you’re inconsequential. You want to talk about owning mistakes? Dude, own your behavior at your kid’s games.

Nobody said reverse a call but yelling is always going to happen at every level. That said, quality refs get yelled at less often than bad refs do.

It's cute that you think that, as it's not remotely true.

Not the PP but I would agree, good refs get yelled at less.

Of course, from your reply it's obvious that you think you're a good ref but since still you get yelled at a lot, you think the statement isn't true. However, another possible explanation explanation is that despite having reffed for a long time, you're not that good.

Just because someone has been reffing forever does not equate to being a good ref. In fact, one of the worse referees in Northern Virginia has been doing it for probably two decades and was once the head of referees at a local club but I've lost count of how many horrible, game-changing calls I've seen him make, including several where his ARs told him he was wrong, but he's still out there, I'm sure thinking he's a good ref.

SoccerRef wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a very cute sentiment but again how does that make anything better in the moment? If you were giving the ref a rating after the game it’s one thing. But yelling at them during the game? What, are they supposed to be like, “oh crap, random parent, you’re right, let me reverse my call!” No. Because they made a mistake (in your eyes, mind you), they don’t take reffing seriously? Who do you think you are? I’ll say it again: as a parent, you’re inconsequential. You want to talk about owning mistakes? Dude, own your behavior at your kid’s games.

Nobody said reverse a call but yelling is always going to happen at every level. That said, quality refs get yelled at less often than bad refs do.

It's cute that you think that, as it's not remotely true.

As kids get older and refs get better yes, it is true. I have seen far, far less ref harassment at older ages. The absolute worst is at the youngest ages where it is a perfect storm of inexperience/ignorance (both player and mostly parent and several refs), parental anxiety and proximity to the field and the players.

Flash forward a few years and those same u9 LUNATIC parents on a showcase sideline with college coaches watching and they are model citizens. lol