Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:33
Subject: Re:Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:mAnonymous wrote:I don't understand this animosity towards legacy admissions. We all know that even the richest colleges have to balance their classes with full pay kids so that they can admit lower SES kids. Given that no college can just admit only kids who qualify for need based aid, what's wrong if the college gives preference to full pay legacy kids over full pay non legacy kids. And let's face it. Most legacy kids are going to be full pay.
Are folks really arguing that even the full pay slots should not take legacy into account. That is stupid. Why not let in kids whose family have traditional links to the school, instead of just letting in a random rich kid provided of course that the legacy kids are qualified
Legacy admissions make more sense than most other preference based admissions
If historically the school has only admitted white applicants, legacies is then discrimination and favors the white as recent immigrants wouldn’t be legacies.
Are recent immigrants likely to be full pay?
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:33
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH and I were both Harvard grads (public school kids, first in the family in each case). Our DC thought legacy advantage was appalling and no wanted part of it. Got into a peer institution EA, so we never had to sort out our feelings about it.
I’m ambivalent about it. OTOH, I was first gen in my family to go to college FT (vs PT night school, while also working). So it feels kinda effed up that legacy becomes problematic just when the alumns with kids who might benefit from it stop being from “elite” families. OTOH, Harvard was life-changing for DH and I in a way it wouldn’t have been for DC, who grew up within those changed lives. So I certainly get the “give this kind of transformative experience to someone who needs it more than your already privileged kid” logic.
Meanwhile, tuition has gotten so ridiculously expensive that, even without legacy, rich kids will continue to be grossly over represented at these schools.
How do you know it was Harvard that was “life-changing”. You came from a family where you were first generation college. Virtually any decent college under those circumstances would’ve been “life changing” for you.
Nope, we both have sibs who went to a range of decent through public Ivy colleges and both we and our DC have very different lives than they and they kids do. And FWIW, we were both first kids in family to go to Harvard, but our parents were college educated. His dad at a state flagship. My parents (who went to college PT at night) gotten decent educations at what I think are now called directional schools — BA in Dad’s case. MA in Mom’s.
Why is your writing so poor?
It’s not poor — it’s informal in an informal context. Can’t tell if the one grammatical error (they vs their kids) should be attributed to autocorrect, lack of coffee, or multitasking, LOL!
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:27
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think diversity in education settings is vital, especially when huge segments of the population are living in segregated areas. Many students are being raised in communities where everyone looks just like them, worships just like them, has roughly the same family net worth as them, votes like them, speaks the same language as them, and it absolutely stunts their growth as a citizen of this country and of the world. College is the first time most people can break away from that, so it is vital the college is as diverse as possible.
The question is not diversity per see. There question is does diversity trump everything else even if it hurts an entire section of the population. Harvard is arguing Yes. I suspect they will eventually lose that argument. You cannot discriminate in the name of diversity. You can of course try and get a diverse class but you cannot start deliberately rejecting men so that your engineering class becomes 50% women. The incoming applicant pool determines how diverse you can get. You cannot use diversity as an excuse to get poorly prepared women into your engineering class in the name of diversity. That would be clear discrimination against male applicants. Same applies for race
What bullshit. Harvard is admitting a diverse class of qualified students. And other qualified students who are not admitted to Harvard aren’t “hurt” by that fact. They just aren’t benefited. They’ll be highly qualified and do well elsewhere.
And, yeah, there are contexts in which you could admit 50% women to your engineering program and still graduate a class full of exceptionally good engineers. Hell, a few years of that any you might revolutionize engineering!
We’re dealing with blunt (and unreliable) instruments for evaluating academic potential and, for elite schools, the pool is talented enough that diverse classes need not include anyone who is poorly prepared for or intellectually incapable of doing the work.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:24
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH and I were both Harvard grads (public school kids, first in the family in each case). Our DC thought legacy advantage was appalling and no wanted part of it. Got into a peer institution EA, so we never had to sort out our feelings about it.
I’m ambivalent about it. OTOH, I was first gen in my family to go to college FT (vs PT night school, while also working). So it feels kinda effed up that legacy becomes problematic just when the alumns with kids who might benefit from it stop being from “elite” families. OTOH, Harvard was life-changing for DH and I in a way it wouldn’t have been for DC, who grew up within those changed lives. So I certainly get the “give this kind of transformative experience to someone who needs it more than your already privileged kid” logic.
Meanwhile, tuition has gotten so ridiculously expensive that, even without legacy, rich kids will continue to be grossly over represented at these schools.
How do you know it was Harvard that was “life-changing”. You came from a family where you were first generation college. Virtually any decent college under those circumstances would’ve been “life changing” for you.
Nope, we both have sibs who went to a range of decent through public Ivy colleges and both we and our DC have very different lives than they and they kids do. And FWIW, we were both first kids in family to go to Harvard, but our parents were college educated. His dad at a state flagship. My parents (who went to college PT at night) gotten decent educations at what I think are now called directional schools — BA in Dad’s case. MA in Mom’s.
Why is your writing so poor?
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:23
Subject: Re:Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:actually no, being as I am an alum and my husband is as well (same school), I am hoping my kids get extra points for legacy admissions
I am too. You do know you have to give high six figures or low seven for legacy to actually count for anything? We didn't give that amount and DS didn't get in (but had all the stats).
Of course I know that. At this point, we are prepared to give 2-3M.
Your child must be very average for you to have to do that. Perhaps they would be a better fit an an average college.
He's 8. It's difficult to say whether he is average or not at this point.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:10
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH and I were both Harvard grads (public school kids, first in the family in each case). Our DC thought legacy advantage was appalling and no wanted part of it. Got into a peer institution EA, so we never had to sort out our feelings about it.
I’m ambivalent about it. OTOH, I was first gen in my family to go to college FT (vs PT night school, while also working). So it feels kinda effed up that legacy becomes problematic just when the alumns with kids who might benefit from it stop being from “elite” families. OTOH, Harvard was life-changing for DH and I in a way it wouldn’t have been for DC, who grew up within those changed lives. So I certainly get the “give this kind of transformative experience to someone who needs it more than your already privileged kid” logic.
Meanwhile, tuition has gotten so ridiculously expensive that, even without legacy, rich kids will continue to be grossly over represented at these schools.
How do you know it was Harvard that was “life-changing”. You came from a family where you were first generation college. Virtually any decent college under those circumstances would’ve been “life changing” for you.
Nope, we both have sibs who went to a range of decent through public Ivy colleges and both we and our DC have very different lives than they and they kids do. And FWIW, we were both first kids in family to go to Harvard, but our parents were college educated. His dad at a state flagship. My parents (who went to college PT at night) gotten decent educations at what I think are now called directional schools — BA in Dad’s case. MA in Mom’s.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:06
Subject: Re:Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:actually no, being as I am an alum and my husband is as well (same school), I am hoping my kids get extra points for legacy admissions
I am too. You do know you have to give high six figures or low seven for legacy to actually count for anything? We didn't give that amount and DS didn't get in (but had all the stats).
Of course I know that. At this point, we are prepared to give 2-3M.
Harvard. Call me. I am willing to give 1 million pesos so that my kid can attend you over hyped University.. My kid loves to smoke pot and his best EC is sleeping
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:03
Subject: Re:Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:actually no, being as I am an alum and my husband is as well (same school), I am hoping my kids get extra points for legacy admissions
I am too. You do know you have to give high six figures or low seven for legacy to actually count for anything? We didn't give that amount and DS didn't get in (but had all the stats).
Of course I know that. At this point, we are prepared to give 2-3M.
Your child must be very average for you to have to do that. Perhaps they would be a better fit an an average college.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:01
Subject: Re:Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:actually no, being as I am an alum and my husband is as well (same school), I am hoping my kids get extra points for legacy admissions
I am too. You do know you have to give high six figures or low seven for legacy to actually count for anything? We didn't give that amount and DS didn't get in (but had all the stats).
Of course I know that. At this point, we are prepared to give 2-3M.
How old is DC? I think you need to be prepared to bump that up by 100%.
I read that Jared Kushner only got into Harvard because his father gave the school 5 million dollars.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:01
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:DH and I were both Harvard grads (public school kids, first in the family in each case). Our DC thought legacy advantage was appalling and no wanted part of it. Got into a peer institution EA, so we never had to sort out our feelings about it.
I’m ambivalent about it. OTOH, I was first gen in my family to go to college FT (vs PT night school, while also working). So it feels kinda effed up that legacy becomes problematic just when the alumns with kids who might benefit from it stop being from “elite” families. OTOH, Harvard was life-changing for DH and I in a way it wouldn’t have been for DC, who grew up within those changed lives. So I certainly get the “give this kind of transformative experience to someone who needs it more than your already privileged kid” logic.
Meanwhile, tuition has gotten so ridiculously expensive that, even without legacy, rich kids will continue to be grossly over represented at these schools.
How do you know it was Harvard that was “life-changing”. You came from a family where you were first generation college. Virtually any decent college under those circumstances would’ve been “life changing” for you.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 08:00
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:I think diversity in education settings is vital, especially when huge segments of the population are living in segregated areas. Many students are being raised in communities where everyone looks just like them, worships just like them, has roughly the same family net worth as them, votes like them, speaks the same language as them, and it absolutely stunts their growth as a citizen of this country and of the world. College is the first time most people can break away from that, so it is vital the college is as diverse as possible.
The question is not diversity per see. There question is does diversity trump everything else even if it hurts an entire section of the population. Harvard is arguing Yes. I suspect they will eventually lose that argument. You cannot discriminate in the name of diversity. You can of course try and get a diverse class but you cannot start deliberately rejecting men so that your engineering class becomes 50% women. The incoming applicant pool determines how diverse you can get. You cannot use diversity as an excuse to get poorly prepared women into your engineering class in the name of diversity. That would be clear discrimination against male applicants. Same applies for race
Anonymous
11/05/2018 07:59
Subject: Re:Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:actually no, being as I am an alum and my husband is as well (same school), I am hoping my kids get extra points for legacy admissions
I am too. You do know you have to give high six figures or low seven for legacy to actually count for anything? We didn't give that amount and DS didn't get in (but had all the stats).
Of course I know that. At this point, we are prepared to give 2-3M.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 07:52
Subject: Re:Harvard + other ivy schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this animosity towards legacy admissions. We all know that even the richest colleges have to balance their classes with full pay kids so that they can admit lower SES kids. Given that no college can just admit only kids who qualify for need based aid, what's wrong if the college gives preference to full pay legacy kids over full pay non legacy kids. And let's face it. Most legacy kids are going to be full pay.
Are folks really arguing that even the full pay slots should not take legacy into account. That is stupid. Why not let in kids whose family have traditional links to the school, instead of just letting in a random rich kid provided of course that the legacy kids are qualified
Legacy admissions make more sense than most other preference based admissions
You can’t be an ‘elite college’ and only let in kids whose parents went there. That’s ridiculous.
And why do you assume that everyone else that is admitted is rich?
Read the post carefully. That's not the argument. The argument is that when taking full pay kids to balance out the class, it's ok to give preference to institutional affiliation just like state schools give preference to instate kids and all schools generally favor US kids over international kids. This notion that institutional affiliation should play no part in the selection process is just dumb. You don't have to take weak legacy kids. In fact a lot of these kids have very strong profiles, but instead of letting in a random rich kid, it makes perfect sense to let in a rich kid whose family had ties to the school. That's just prudent decision making
Anonymous
11/05/2018 07:31
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
I think diversity in education settings is vital, especially when huge segments of the population are living in segregated areas. Many students are being raised in communities where everyone looks just like them, worships just like them, has roughly the same family net worth as them, votes like them, speaks the same language as them, and it absolutely stunts their growth as a citizen of this country and of the world. College is the first time most people can break away from that, so it is vital the college is as diverse as possible.
Anonymous
11/05/2018 07:24
Subject: Harvard + other ivy schools
In the end, this comes down to do you value diversity and do you see it as a threat to meritocracy and/or academic excellence? (Bonus questions: do you see the role of family wealth in this whole process as a similar threat? What about athletics or extracurriculars?)
I’m solidly in the pro-diversity camp and I see educational institutions that recognize different kinds of talents and include people whose perspectives and experiences vary as stronger and more intellectually challenging than those that don’t. Harvard’s institutional stake goes beyond academic interests — it seeks power (or access to power) and fame. We live in a culture where well-trainedintelligence is hardly the sole (or even a likely) path to power, fortune, or fame. And Harvard wouldn’t be Harvard if it couldn’t hold out the prospect of proximity to current and future movers and shakers to the people who aspire to study there.
I’m solidly in the pro-diversity camp and I see educational institutions that recognize different kinds of talents and include people whose perspectives and experiences vary as stronger and more intellectually challenging than those that don’t. Harvard’s institutional stake goes beyond academic interests — it seeks power (or access to power) and fame. We live in a culture where well-trainedintelligence is hardly the sole (or even a likely) path to power, fortune, or fame. And Harvard wouldn’t be Harvard if it couldn’t hold out the prospect of proximity to current and future movers and shakers to the people who aspire to study there.