Anonymous
09/25/2018 07:28
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?
And Asians never complain about anything - go figure!
Asians complain about the "Asian penalty" in college admissions. The problem is that the schools keep insisting that the only prep necessary is a good night's sleep and breakfast. Unfortunately, nonAsians listen to that. The schools have stigmatized prepping for the CogAT and the NNAT. Most Asians come from a culture where prepping and prepping some more is the norm. They ignore the schools and prep, as should everyone else.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 23:55
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.
If you have him go to a class, they will tell him what the pictures are and what the correct answers are. I hear the classes guarantee a gifted score.
This is an ever-ending controversial topic. Should you prep or not? Well, prep does work temporarily for the test and have some long term benefit by learning the patterns. If you believe you child is smart and won't struggle in AAP, then prep may be worth it. In my school, a few kids quit AAP in 5th grade. I figured that they prepped hard to get in. In the end, if you don't put in hard work or not intelligent enough to keep up with the AAP work, then you would end up quitting or not like school.
At the end of the day, water finds its own level. A "smart" kid will eventually get his due, regardless of whether or not he did AAP. "Smart" in my book includes one of natural intelligence, ability to focus and work hard, high level of ambition, perseverance, etc. You can compensate for lack of natural intelligence through other criteria - hard work, perseverance, etc.
Almost all Asians expect their kids to be smart. They tell the kids as much and reinforce that through prep classes or other supplementation. They ALSO do concerts, museums, etc. (it's not the non-preppers that do it). I read a study recently that subjects behave in the way you expect them to. In the article, scientists labeled a cage containing a mouse as "smart" and did not label the others. Apparently the "smart" mouse behaved like it was actually smarter than the other mice (though its baseline measures were pretty much the same as the others). The conclusion was that the behavior of the testers (grad students in this case) encouraged the mice to put out his best. Think about this.. If a mouse can behave smarter than other mice because that's what someone expects of it, why not human children? Once this becomes part of their behavior, they compensate for lack of natural intelligence through hard work as needed.
If this was not the case, how do so many Asians get into TJ AND manage to complete 4 years of High School in one of the most brutal programs in the country? Of course, not all kids are smart and a fair number will drop off along the way, 7th grade when the enter MS, 9th grade when they enter HS, etc.
So, IMHO, prepping actually gives the kids an advantage. If you are borderline smart, it's a huge advantage. If you are below that line, it at least gives you a good work ethic.
Hard work will only get a person so far without a healthy dose of natural intelligence. Michael Phelps worked hard at swimming, but without his natural talent, he would not have won those Olympic medals. Some people can work all day long, but they cannot achieve what someone who works the same hours but also has talent can achieve.
Hard work will compensate to a point, but at some point the amount of hard work it takes to continue in a "gifted" level program will completely stress a child to the point where they will have little time for non-academic activities. TJ is brutal for a kid who has to work till the wee hours and work with outside tutors and/or classes to keep up, but not for the kids for whom the program is designed. Lots of kids at TJ manage to do sports and other non-academic activities for hours after school each day and still do well in their classes. Those kids know how to work hard but they are smart enough that they also have time to give to other activities.
What if a kid needs to give so much time to keeping up with an AAP class that is over his head that he never has time to work on a completely different skill for which he actually has a talent? That is a loss to that child and time that he can never get back. Kids who don't truly need the AAP classroom will get a better education in the regular classroom and will be more likely to have the time to develop a variety of skills and talents.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 19:40
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.
If you have him go to a class, they will tell him what the pictures are and what the correct answers are. I hear the classes guarantee a gifted score.
This is an ever-ending controversial topic. Should you prep or not? Well, prep does work temporarily for the test and have some long term benefit by learning the patterns. If you believe you child is smart and won't struggle in AAP, then prep may be worth it. In my school, a few kids quit AAP in 5th grade. I figured that they prepped hard to get in. In the end, if you don't put in hard work or not intelligent enough to keep up with the AAP work, then you would end up quitting or not like school.
At the end of the day, water finds its own level. A "smart" kid will eventually get his due, regardless of whether or not he did AAP. "Smart" in my book includes one of natural intelligence, ability to focus and work hard, high level of ambition, perseverance, etc. You can compensate for lack of natural intelligence through other criteria - hard work, perseverance, etc.
Almost all Asians expect their kids to be smart. They tell the kids as much and reinforce that through prep classes or other supplementation. They ALSO do concerts, museums, etc. (it's not the non-preppers that do it). I read a study recently that subjects behave in the way you expect them to. In the article, scientists labeled a cage containing a mouse as "smart" and did not label the others. Apparently the "smart" mouse behaved like it was actually smarter than the other mice (though its baseline measures were pretty much the same as the others). The conclusion was that the behavior of the testers (grad students in this case) encouraged the mice to put out his best. Think about this.. If a mouse can behave smarter than other mice because that's what someone expects of it, why not human children? Once this becomes part of their behavior, they compensate for lack of natural intelligence through hard work as needed.
If this was not the case, how do so many Asians get into TJ AND manage to complete 4 years of High School in one of the most brutal programs in the country? Of course, not all kids are smart and a fair number will drop off along the way, 7th grade when the enter MS, 9th grade when they enter HS, etc.
So, IMHO, prepping actually gives the kids an advantage. If you are borderline smart, it's a huge advantage. If you are below that line, it at least gives you a good work ethic.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 18:46
Subject: Re:Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I have no idea as I've never seen the questions but I know both my older black kids bombed the CogAT and both have IQs over 150. It was odd to us. Our older child is homeschooled but does some college courses. She's 12. Our younger child is in 3rd in AAP. We usually start homeschool at 6th grade. IMO it's all culturally biased based on who designs the test, but there's nothing you can do about it.
If two kids with IQs over 150 bombed the test then that pretty much invalidates the test. That’s worthy of academic publication. Do you think it was all attributable to cultural bias?
It does not invalidate the test. In fact, research shows highly gifted kids often do not do well on these types of test. It is not an IQ test - don't confuse it as such. My 149 IQ child also did poorly.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 14:51
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I was surprised to see the sample questions relating to tennis, camping, and stringed instruments. I was taken aback.
Why were you "taken aback"? What did you expect - questions on Pelota, Tea ceremony and the Tabla?
More like gangsta, baby dad and transgender.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 14:40
Subject: Re:Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:
I actually wrote standardized test questions in an earlier job, and the training for most major testing companies includes a lot of discussion of cultural bias and there are pretty strict standards in place for what you aren't allowed to use as a question base. You're not supposed to ask questions about things that only wealthy children would have access to (i.e. sleepaway camp, sailing, yachting, etc.); They actually think about things that for example a kid in foster care might never had access to (a birthday party, for one); think about the fact that not everyone has a grandmother, that there are cultures where people don't have dogs as house pets (though there might be a guard dog at a factory) -- considering the different upbringings of kids who are Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. Wrote something in a state where there were actually kids who were Mennonites etc and they had to be careful not assume everyone had a cell phone, etc.
We have a kid who is bright, however, and also on the autism spectrum and I remember noticing that it was still okay to write questions about how someone is feeling, questions where someone is supposed to interpret how someone is feeling on the basis of a picture with a facial expression, or something that might have happened. My kids always bomb those questions.
When I think 'shoemaker' however, I think about the fact that you'd know that if you had seen Pinocchio or if your parents had read you Pinocchio or some other folktale. Here's another example of there being an unfair bias towards kids with two parents with time to read books to them, where English is their first language, where both parents are literate, etc. My husband's parents did not read English when he was a child and I"m sure he would have not known what a shoemaker is as a result.
I understand what you're saying but I think what you're describing takes it to the extreme where you can almost use nothing at all. Like why use a picture of an apple ? You might get a kid who never saw an apple.
I guarantee you that Asian and Middle Eastern kids raised in cultures where you don't have dogs as pets are AWARE that pet dogs exist. Likewise a foster care kid may not have had a birthday party but I'm sure they are aware that birthday parties EXIST. Mennonite kids may not have a cellphone but I am pretty sure they are aware of their existence.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 14:34
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.
If you have him go to a class, they will tell him what the pictures are and what the correct answers are. I hear the classes guarantee a gifted score.
Prep classes don't tell the kids what the correct answers are. They make them look and brainstorm for patterns then try then on until one fits.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 14:32
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
This is an ever-ending controversial topic. Should you prep or not? Well, prep does work temporarily for the test and have some long term benefit by learning the patterns. If you believe you child is smart and won't struggle in AAP, then prep may be worth it. In my school, a few kids quit AAP in 5th grade. I figured that they prepped hard to get in. In the end, if you don't put in hard work or not intelligent enough to keep up with the AAP work, then you would end up quitting or not like school.
My worry is that the kids who quit AAP are the gifted underachievers who can't keep up with the output demands of AAP. Gifted programs should be much less about the hard work and much more about the outside-the-box thinking or sheer intelligence.
Mostly agree, but the kids are there because they display an ability to think at deeper levels, not just creative/outside the box, etc. Thinking about something deeply is hard work so they certainly should stress this, otherwise they would not be challenging them. The problem is that a large chunk of work is still not deep, it's still just busywork which fails many of these kids because it keeps them bored but also now stresses them out since they have lots of homework/deadlines of busywork. For the ones who can't handle/accomodate to this, staying out of AAP is a better choice as it gives them more time to explore their natural interests more deeply.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 14:31
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?
Asians prep. They spend time explaining to their kids what a shoemaker is or a typewriter. White people and non-Asian/non-whites do not.
Why not? If you don't care to educate your child.. well, your child will not be educated.
Because the test is designed for no prepping, and I follow the rules. And DH and I were both in GT programs as kids and now our kids are in AAP, without prepping.
"educating your child" is taking them to the museum or a symphony, reading them stories. "Prepping your child" is making them do flashcards and memorize what a shoemaker is. I prefer to educate my child.
I suppose you don't believe in multiplication tables or practicing scales either?
Anonymous
09/24/2018 12:31
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:
This is an ever-ending controversial topic. Should you prep or not? Well, prep does work temporarily for the test and have some long term benefit by learning the patterns. If you believe you child is smart and won't struggle in AAP, then prep may be worth it. In my school, a few kids quit AAP in 5th grade. I figured that they prepped hard to get in. In the end, if you don't put in hard work or not intelligent enough to keep up with the AAP work, then you would end up quitting or not like school.
My worry is that the kids who quit AAP are the gifted underachievers who can't keep up with the output demands of AAP. Gifted programs should be much less about the hard work and much more about the outside-the-box thinking or sheer intelligence.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 12:21
Subject: Re:Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm an ESOL teacher and proctor or TA for so many standardized tests. Most of them are culturally biased or just plain contain content not familiar to modern children. My (least) favorite is the entry test for Pre-K students where 4 year olds need to retell a story about a shoemaker. A shoemaker!
I just asked my 5 year old about how shoes are made and he said "In a shoe factory, of course!". Shoemaker is ridiculous.
I actually wrote standardized test questions in an earlier job, and the training for most major testing companies includes a lot of discussion of cultural bias and there are pretty strict standards in place for what you aren't allowed to use as a question base. You're not supposed to ask questions about things that only wealthy children would have access to (i.e. sleepaway camp, sailing, yachting, etc.); They actually think about things that for example a kid in foster care might never had access to (a birthday party, for one); think about the fact that not everyone has a grandmother, that there are cultures where people don't have dogs as house pets (though there might be a guard dog at a factory) -- considering the different upbringings of kids who are Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. Wrote something in a state where there were actually kids who were Mennonites etc and they had to be careful not assume everyone had a cell phone, etc.
We have a kid who is bright, however, and also on the autism spectrum and I remember noticing that it was still okay to write questions about how someone is feeling, questions where someone is supposed to interpret how someone is feeling on the basis of a picture with a facial expression, or something that might have happened. My kids always bomb those questions.
When I think 'shoemaker' however, I think about the fact that you'd know that if you had seen Pinocchio or if your parents had read you Pinocchio or some other folktale. Here's another example of there being an unfair bias towards kids with two parents with time to read books to them, where English is their first language, where both parents are literate, etc. My husband's parents did not read English when he was a child and I"m sure he would have not known what a shoemaker is as a result.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 12:15
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?
Asians prep. They spend time explaining to their kids what a shoemaker is or a typewriter. White people and non-Asian/non-whites do not.
Why not? If you don't care to educate your child.. well, your child will not be educated.
Because the test is designed for no prepping, and I follow the rules. And DH and I were both in GT programs as kids and now our kids are in AAP, without prepping.
"educating your child" is taking them to the museum or a symphony, reading them stories. "Prepping your child" is making them do flashcards and memorize what a shoemaker is. I prefer to educate my child.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 12:00
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.
If you have him go to a class, they will tell him what the pictures are and what the correct answers are. I hear the classes guarantee a gifted score.
This is an ever-ending controversial topic. Should you prep or not? Well, prep does work temporarily for the test and have some long term benefit by learning the patterns. If you believe you child is smart and won't struggle in AAP, then prep may be worth it. In my school, a few kids quit AAP in 5th grade. I figured that they prepped hard to get in. In the end, if you don't put in hard work or not intelligent enough to keep up with the AAP work, then you would end up quitting or not like school.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 10:03
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
Anonymous wrote:We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.
If you have him go to a class, they will tell him what the pictures are and what the correct answers are. I hear the classes guarantee a gifted score.
Anonymous
09/24/2018 09:42
Subject: Cogat culturally biased?
We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.