Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child was forced in a mixed class and it was a disaster and he hated it. He was scared to go to school every day as he'd get attacked every morning by another child who the school kept claiming was hugging him - my child was clear they were not welcomed hugs but school refused to stop them. All day, every day, several kids had to be pulled out of the classroom and it was very disruptive and hard on some of the other kids like mine. The school would complain my child was distracted and of course give everything happening and being physically attacked - hugged, grabbed, poked, what ever you want to call it.

I like the idea of mainstreaming but its not right for all kids in all situation and it can be an issue for other kids.

Thank you. But that is why I mentioned that this is a non -violent/ aggressive situation which ofcourse should be dealt with differently.

How do you describe non-violent? If he is being aggressive, its equally as bad for the other kids. It should not be dealt with the same way. You need to consider the other kids needs. Your kid has behavioral issues. Your kid is SN, like many of ours. If he is not, then there is an issue at home or parenting. He needs to be in private counseling to help him and you deal with it.

It is not a tool to separate. There is a rule called Least Restrictive Environment in special education law. This means that a child who needs services will most likely get push in first, then pull out if needed. Self contained classrooms are only considered in extreme cases. Children are considered to be in special education at all three levels.

Has your child gone to a social skill group in school or outside of school?

Behavioral issues are special needs issues, OP, by definition.

You should take this golden opportunity to have your child evaluated by a developmental pediatrician or psychologist, to see whether he has ADHD, or something else. Given what you've described, it's very likely ADHD.

Armed with the specialist's advice and written report, you can then decide whether further treatment/management is needed, and whether it's going to come from the school or private sources.

But you can't just sit back and refuse to act here. If the school is pushing for placement, it means that many of the parents have heard their kids complain about yours, and have alerted the administration, and that the situation has developed to a critical point. I know two disturbed and bullying children who made the lives of their classmates very difficult and scary because despite the school offers of help, the parents were in denial about the gravity of the situation.

Don't be that parent.

Unfortunately some school, especially all kinds of “alternative” public schools, do try to use special ed as a way to get rid of disruptive students.
Providing services per se is great; it is usually the “maybe your neighborhood school/another setting will be a better choice for your child” that indicates this.
Even in a title 1 school my son went to- one child was white and his mom made it clear that sped classroom was not an option; another was brown and his mom was a Spanish speaker with an autistic younger sib and a NT toddler. Guess what happened to those 2 boys.

My autistic child is potentially the smartest kid in the grade, certainly so in math. My child’s neuropsych reveals giftedness.

But my child needs an IEP so that experts can provide assistance with things like social skills and emotional regulation. My child attends a regular classroom. If there’s a meltdown an aide or special education teacher helps, so that the teacher can keep on teaching.

By refusing an IEP you’re denying needed services to your child and imposing on the teacher and other classmates.

Get over your prejudices. There is no stigma in an IEP. The only stigma belongs to the parent who denies one.

Why won’t you describe the behaviors, OP?

[quote=Anonymous]OP here. We have worked a lot with DC and there has been much improvement since kinder. But this is FIRST grade and immaturity should not come as a surprise. There have been other children recently being pushed into special ed as part of what seems like a wave at the school. But my intention was to ask a much broader question. Allow me to rephrase:

Do you think a school should be able to use special education as a tool to segregate the well behaved from the ill behaved if there is no danger of physical harm? Yes I understand the argument of affecting others. But special education was never intended as a tool to "help others". Perhaps something else should be in place for that like a BMP? Thanks.[/quote]

I don't believe your claim of there being a wave of other children being pushed into special ed. I've been teaching more than 20 years. Special education is enormously expensive for school districts. There is SOOOO much federal oversight that whenever schools get to a certain percentage of their students having IEP's, a whole set of extra oversight happens. Districts are told they are over referring. While "officially" there is no cap on Sped, in reality, in practice, there is. No school wants a lot of kids in sped.

Special ed is NOT used to segregate the well behaved from the ill behaved. Special ed does, however, provide an alternative setting for children who cannot succeed in a mainstream classroom, like your son. The fact that he is nonviolent doesn't really mean anything. The fact that the school would like an alternate setting for your child indicates that for whatever reason, his behavior is not allowing him to succeed in a general education classroom. This does not have to do with the other kids, it is about YOUR kid not being able to manage in a gen ed room.

Fwiw, I have a student in my classroom right now that, unless the supports we've put in place are successful, is like your son. He's super bright, reads one year ahead of level. While many middle and upper income schools will always have a bunch of kids like that and it isn't such a big deal, in my lower income school this is rare. But, he's a massive behavior issue. Yes, he does prevent the other children from learning. Absolutely. I'd hate for my own children to be in a class with a child like this. However, if he ever does qualify for sped, it won't be because he's making my life a living hell and preventing other kids from learning. It'll be because as bright as he is, he's not learning himself. Yes, he's ahead of grade level, but a kid with his intelligence could easily be 3-4 years ahead of level. He's clearly not meeting his potential and he's suffering from terrible issues.

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here.

Special ed is not, and was never intended as, a way to segregate behavior issues. Believe me, I've had plenty of kids who are just rude/immature come through my room, and I would never have suggested SPED referrals for them.

What phase are you in? Is the school just requesting to do evaluations? Why wouldn't you let them? You'll get additional information about your child, and then once you have that data you can make a decision with the school team about whether or not to implement supports (and what services you want your child to have). The parent has the ultimate say at every step. The school cannot force you to get an IEP for your child.

Please consider doing the testing. I teach 8th grade. By the time they get to me, students have struggled in school for 8 years. When I look at their cum files, my biggest strugglers often have notes that parents denied services.

No school I have ever been in puts kids into SPED unnecessarily. It is a ton of work to get things set up properly, so schools take it seriously! There has to be documented need, identified supports, and yearly check ins to modify the document and make sure everything is working for the benefit of YOUR CHILD.

Like the PP said, an IEP can be as little as 30 minutes a week with the psychologist working on social skills. It can be small group instruction for certain subjects or times of day. It's rarely a self contained classroom. That goes against the LRE.

Look here: http://www.sonomaselpa.org/docs/social-emotional-goals.pdf Do any of those goals look like they could benefit your child? These are things the school can help your student achieve if there is reason to believe they are linked to a disability.

PLEASE at least start the process.

This. Another teacher. Special Education is set up to meet the needs of those who require it. If your child is not disruptive and his needs can be met in a gen ed classroom with some extra help, it will be. However, if he needs lots of extra help and is disruptive to others, he might be better off elsewhere.

There are lots of ways a child can be disruptive to a class without being aggressive. Does your child make constant noises that are disturbing to others? That could be disruptive. Does your child require the teacher to constantly coax him to change tasks? That too could be disruptive. Does your child cry a lot and cannot be soothed? That could be disruptive.

I don't think the teacher is suggesting this for no reason. As PP said, it is a lot of work to get help for kids.

Teacher here.

Special ed is not, and was never intended as, a way to segregate behavior issues. Believe me, I've had plenty of kids who are just rude/immature come through my room, and I would never have suggested SPED referrals for them.

What phase are you in? Is the school just requesting to do evaluations? Why wouldn't you let them? You'll get additional information about your child, and then once you have that data you can make a decision with the school team about whether or not to implement supports (and what services you want your child to have). The parent has the ultimate say at every step. The school cannot force you to get an IEP for your child.

Please consider doing the testing. I teach 8th grade. By the time they get to me, students have struggled in school for 8 years. When I look at their cum files, my biggest strugglers often have notes that parents denied services.

No school I have ever been in puts kids into SPED unnecessarily. It is a ton of work to get things set up properly, so schools take it seriously! There has to be documented need, identified supports, and yearly check ins to modify the document and make sure everything is working for the benefit of YOUR CHILD.

Like the PP said, an IEP can be as little as 30 minutes a week with the psychologist working on social skills. It can be small group instruction for certain subjects or times of day. It's rarely a self contained classroom. That goes against the LRE.

Look here: http://www.sonomaselpa.org/docs/social-emotional-goals.pdf Do any of those goals look like they could benefit your child? These are things the school can help your student achieve if there is reason to believe they are linked to a disability.

PLEASE at least start the process.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]OP here. We have worked a lot with DC and there has been much improvement since kinder. But this is FIRST grade and immaturity should not come as a surprise. There have been other children recently being pushed into special ed as part of what seems like a wave at the school. But my intention was to ask a much broader question. Allow me to rephrase:

[b]Do you think a school should be able to use special education as a tool to segregate the well behaved from the ill behaved if there is no danger of physical harm? Yes I understand the argument of affecting others. But special education was never intended as a tool to "help others". Perhaps something else should be in place for that like a BMP? Thanks.[/b][/quote]

I disagree with the premise of your question. You're only seeing an IEP as a means to separate students when that is, in fact, not the case at all. You're leaving out a HUGE part of an IEP: Least restrictive environment. The least restrictive environment is the general education classroom in the neighborhood school with no services or accommodations. Every attempt has to be made to maintain that as closely as possible. Your child can receive special education services whereby a special education staff member comes to the general education classroom to provide services and accommodations. Or it could be that your child is pulled out of the general education class for short periods of scheduled time for specialized instruction. All of these decisions are made to ensure the student receives the services he/she needs.

A student who is engaging in disruptive behavior may need another staff member in the room to give prompts. Or the child may be pulled out for 30 minutes each morning to learn some coping skills that are then applied back in the general education classroom. Or maybe the team realizes that the behaviors occur primarily during reading, so the child receives reading instruction in a small group outside the gen ed classroom, but spends the rest of the day in the gen ed classroom.

Again, I think you're coming at this with limited information. The premise of special education is to provide specialized instruction, accommodations and if need be, modifications to the general ed curriculum. Goals are set based on performance data and standards the studentsis expected to meet. And the setting where all of these things happen is carefully considered and must be justified. [/quote]

If this child needs more support and there is not a paraprofessional to do basically 1-1 or 1-2 kids then that would not be the least restrictive as this child isn't functioning well in this environment and needs more. OP needs to get a private evaluation and counseling for the family/child and behavioral supports at home for a start. What ever everyone is doing isn't working.

[quote=Anonymous]OP here. We have worked a lot with DC and there has been much improvement since kinder. But this is FIRST grade and immaturity should not come as a surprise. There have been other children recently being pushed into special ed as part of what seems like a wave at the school. But my intention was to ask a much broader question. Allow me to rephrase:

[b]Do you think a school should be able to use special education as a tool to segregate the well behaved from the ill behaved if there is no danger of physical harm? Yes I understand the argument of affecting others. But special education was never intended as a tool to "help others". Perhaps something else should be in place for that like a BMP? Thanks.[/b][/quote]

I disagree with the premise of your question. You're only seeing an IEP as a means to separate students when that is, in fact, not the case at all. You're leaving out a HUGE part of an IEP: Least restrictive environment. The least restrictive environment is the general education classroom in the neighborhood school with no services or accommodations. Every attempt has to be made to maintain that as closely as possible. Your child can receive special education services whereby a special education staff member comes to the general education classroom to provide services and accommodations. Or it could be that your child is pulled out of the general education class for short periods of scheduled time for specialized instruction. All of these decisions are made to ensure the student receives the services he/she needs.

A student who is engaging in disruptive behavior may need another staff member in the room to give prompts. Or the child may be pulled out for 30 minutes each morning to learn some coping skills that are then applied back in the general education classroom. Or maybe the team realizes that the behaviors occur primarily during reading, so the child receives reading instruction in a small group outside the gen ed classroom, but spends the rest of the day in the gen ed classroom.

Again, I think you're coming at this with limited information. The premise of special education is to provide specialized instruction, accommodations and if need be, modifications to the general ed curriculum. Goals are set based on performance data and standards the studentsis expected to meet. And the setting where all of these things happen is carefully considered and must be justified.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is pretty rare that teachers are the ones pushing for an IEP, OP. Usually the opposite. So, your child must have bigger needs than you are admitting here or to yourself.

This. I am a teacher and we beg for services for students who need them. It's an uphill battle.

+1, we and the teacher said the same things about my child and both of us were dismissed and they refused to modify the IEP.

[quote=Anonymous]OP here. We have worked a lot with DC and there has been much improvement since kinder. But this is FIRST grade and immaturity should not come as a surprise. There have been other children recently being pushed into special ed as part of what seems like a wave at the school. But my intention was to ask a much broader question. Allow me to rephrase:

Do you think a school should be able to use special education as a tool to segregate the well behaved from the ill behaved if there is no danger of physical harm? Yes I understand the argument of affecting others. But special education was never intended as a tool to "help others". Perhaps something else should be in place for that like a BMP? Thanks.[/quote]

It isn't immaturity and using maturity/immaturity as an excuse makes no sense as no child who is in 1st should be mature. If you do not agree with the school, get a private behavioral evaluation to see what is going on as it is not immaturity. It is either something medical or something going on either at home, school or parenting not working for him and some serious changes need to be made.

Your defining no harm is very different than someone else. Special education is to meet your child's needs. Your child is having serious issues to be considered. Get an private evaluation and behavioral therapy.

OP, it sounds like your child needs an IEP, and you are fighting it. You are doing your child no favors.

I have seen children in classes that disrupt the class, because they simply can't keep up - they are constantly seated next to the same person for "help" during the class, which disrupts that person's learning and education. Not only is it not fair, but it is not right, and when (not if) that person's parents find out that the teacher is doing this, it will be bad. It will be bad because you don't know what parents you are dealing with, and if they bring their wrath, your child will be the one who is paying. Don't do that to your child, and don't do that to the other class members.

[quote=Anonymous]OP here. We have worked a lot with DC and there has been much improvement since kinder. But this is FIRST grade and immaturity should not come as a surprise. There have been other children recently being pushed into special ed as part of what seems like a wave at the school. But my intention was to ask a much broader question. Allow me to rephrase:

Do you think a school should be able to use special education as a tool to segregate the well behaved from the ill behaved if there is no danger of physical harm? Yes I understand the argument of affecting others. But special education was never intended as a tool to "help others". Perhaps something else should be in place for that like a BMP? Thanks.[/quote]

Are they advocating for a change in placement or for special ed eligibility?

A BIP is a special ed tool. If you want your child to have one that is enforceable, then you need to allow the eligibility process.

On the other hand, if your child has an IEP but no BIP, then yes they should start there before changing placement.

If the "non-violent" behaviors are requiring frequent redirection and refocusing on task to access the curriculum, then yes, the child is unable to access the curriculum without special education services. That would not be a regular education path, even if it is "non-violent," and without even taking into account how it affects other children.