Adding to 12:09

There are great in-house gigs out there. Most aren't in the DC area, and those that are here draw significant competition.

If someone wants a great in-house gig, you need to be willing to move, especially if you want your career to advance (i.e. you need to be at corporate HQ).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The stressful part about inhouse is that you are a cost center and can be cut any time. Has not happened so much in the good economy, but ask anyone who was in-house in 2008-09.

This. My DH has been in-house since 2009 in two different companies. He was just laid off from the 2nd one (he was also laid off from the first one a few years ago.) Good in-house jobs are hard to find and with rare exception they pay $180-200k. DH has been aggressively looking for months now (he was given a lot of notice about the layoff) and has found nothing. He is considering going back to a firm as a senior associate/of counsel simply because he needs a job, even though he much prefers in-house.

So, in short, nice work if you can get it.

And as you get older, it is harder to get the next in-house job (unless you are at GC level). It’s rare to see an in-house hire who is over 50.

As a general matter. I agree. When I was restructured as part of an M&A event roughly 10 years ago, I had no problem landing a new in-house gig within a month - for higher pay! I used to get recruiter calls weekly because of my specialty. Today, I'm in the same specialty, but am in my mid-to-late-40s. The recruiter calls are rare, and while interviews were common, offers were rare (they all seemed to hire much younger and "diverse" candidates).

So yes if you're talking tech companies or where the company is looking for a "grinder" (i.e. in-house lawyer who does deals - sales and procurement contract negotiations). The GC (or AGC/DGC) who is hiring wants someone who will keep Sales happy and out of their hair (so that they can go home at 5:00 pm or deal with more interesting legal issues). The same goes for so-called "product" attorneys who support tech product development teams. Somewhat "no" if you're talking about certain specialties, such as patent and employment.

By the time you get to 50, hopefully you have a cash cushion, your kids are teenagers (and college tuition is mostly saved), your spouse has a job with decent pay and benefits, etc... If this is the case, then the risk in hanging out your own shingle is much lower and gives you the flexibility to work 9-5 or less.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feds

State or local govt

Nonprofits

Policy/think tanks

I work in local govt and we have a ton of night and weekend meetings I have to go to because that is when citizens go be there. City Council meetings are always Tuesday nights until 2 am. People have no idea how hard local government attorneys work.

People have no idea because the work product they put out is complete garbage and generally they seem utterly incompetent. Certainly most local gov lawyers I’ve seen will be out the door at 455 pm latest.

Anonymous wrote:Feds

State or local govt

Nonprofits

Policy/think tanks

I work in local govt and we have a ton of night and weekend meetings I have to go to because that is when citizens go be there. City Council meetings are always Tuesday nights until 2 am. People have no idea how hard local government attorneys work.

Anonymous wrote:I’m surprised no one has mentioned going to a trade association. Generally it’s pretty stable hours.

yes, that's me. It can get busy sometimes (we have conferences, and sometimes there is a regulation or bill or hearing or something that requires a response) but it truly can be 9-5. I usually do 9:30-6 but it's easy for me to get out at 5 on the dot when I need to.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do appointed criminal appeals and contract work. It only works because I get benefits from my spouse's employer, but I also work less than full time and can, to some extent, control my schedule.

When you say "appointed criminal appeals" what do you mean? Court-appointed public defender work?

At least in the state where I work, people who were represented by the public defender at trial get a court appointed and compensated attorney on appeal. You apply to be on the panel of attorneys that gets appointed.

I’m surprised no one has mentioned going to a trade association. Generally it’s pretty stable hours.

Not exactly 9-5, but I’m on a reduced (70%) schedule at biglaw and it works well for me and my family. The downsides are it’s not partnership track (I don’t really care about that) and for the same reason it lacks stability (ie I don’t think it can last forever and think I would be cut quickly if there were layoffs. This risk bothers me but frankly the pay makes it ok for now.)

Why not fed?

You want a job with Ag or Commerce or DOT if you want 9-5 and those jobs are not that competitive.

OP, you need to talk to people who actually work at the division of the agency you are applying for. I used to work at Commerce (in employment law). No, it certainly was not as hard to get in the door as at DOJ or State, but the workload was heavy and the hours were not 9-5 at all. People left the agency all the time. Do your research once you apply and get an offer from a specific agency and division.

I don’t know why you’re ruling out all fed jobs in your OP. Yes, they can be competitive, but if you look at jobs beyond Main DOJ/USAOs/State/L, they’re not more competitive than many of the other jobs folks are discussing. And, truthfully, litigating DOJ/USAOs (particularly crim side in busy districts)/State/L are like the Big Law of fed jobs: more prestigious, perhaps more interesting, but also more work... You want a job with Ag or Commerce or DOT if you want 9-5 and those jobs are not that competitive.