Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

huh? I'd say the children the most frequent behavour problems anywhere are the ones with no father figure, uneducated parent(s), yelling or abuse at home, and poverty-stricken (i.e. one or both parent does not hold down a job for long).

This is as likely to be true of white children as it is of black children. Yet there is still a disparity in the disciplining of black children, even for the same behaviors.

No disparity, just higher absolute and relative numbers of black children with "'no father figure, uneducated parent(s), yelling or abuse at home, and poverty-stricken.'" Plus they repeatedly act up in the school, not once or twice, the same individual is habitually misbehaving at school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

Did you read 15:15 at all? It's not the color of the skin. I haven't had time to read the study and see what the controls were for other factors: living in projects; income; family; etc. My own personal experience is that it is the environment in which the kids are raised that is the problem. It may also be difficulty in getting cooperation from parents at home. Having not read the study, but my experience tells me that the main factor is the projects that many of the kids live in. I'll try to read it later (next week) and get back. FWIW, I taught white kids whose behavior was just as poor, but the much higher percentage of problems was with the AAs. This is when I taught in a very poor neighborhood.
In the second school, where the social and economic background was similar, there was no difference in behavior. None.

My gut tells me that it is the "projects" that cause the problem. The worst behavior came from kids who lived in the projects. I don't know the percentage of AAs who live in projects vs whites, but my guess is that it is higher.

Again, i haven't read the study yet. But, I don't think one person on this thread has blamed it on genetics or the color of the skin.

PP here. That’s precisely my point, though. The attempts to explain away the disparity in discipline in schools as absolutely anything other than what it is, a disparity in discipline in schools, becomes so absurdly illogical that there is no other explanation left besides genetics and skin color, yet no one is owning up to what their arguments are implying. Black children from educated, UMC families in wealthy school districts experience the same thing. I did read 15:15, and I agree the projects are horrendous. But there are white children from horrific and often impoverished family situations whose acting out is just as bad, and they are not treated the same way in schools. Rural (and, increasingly, suburban) white poverty and despair is very frightening up close.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

I don't think poor blacks are less disciplined than poor whites. But look at where the majority of poor whites live- in rural USA. Poor blacks are mostly living in urban areas. That's a big difference there.

It’s a difference. It does not result in a difference in the behaviors of the impoverished children involved, however. Only in a disparity in the severity of discipline in response.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

huh? I'd say the children the most frequent behavour problems anywhere are the ones with no father figure, uneducated parent(s), yelling or abuse at home, and poverty-stricken (i.e. one or both parent does not hold down a job for long).

This is as likely to be true of white children as it is of black children. Yet there is still a disparity in the disciplining of black children, even for the same behaviors.

They need attention and are not getting any at home = acting up at home and at school.

Anonymous wrote:To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

I don't think poor blacks are less disciplined than poor whites. But look at where the majority of poor whites live- in rural USA. Poor blacks are mostly living in urban areas. That's a big difference there.

Anonymous wrote:To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

huh? I'd say the children the most frequent behavour problems anywhere are the ones with no father figure, uneducated parent(s), yelling or abuse at home, and poverty-stricken (i.e. one or both parent does not hold down a job for long).

Anonymous wrote:I need to see way more data than what is being shared. A survey?
I don’t doubt that black students often get a raw deal, but we need more info than what is being provided.

Here you go, PP.

https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-18-258

K-12 EDUCATION:
Discipline Disparities for Black Students, Boys, and Students with Disabilities
GAO-18-258: Published: Mar 22, 2018. Publicly Released: Apr 4, 2018.

I need to see way more data than what is being shared. A survey?
I don’t doubt that black students often get a raw deal, but we need more info than what is being provided.

Anonymous wrote:To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

Did you read 15:15 at all? It's not the color of the skin. I haven't had time to read the study and see what the controls were for other factors: living in projects; income; family; etc. My own personal experience is that it is the environment in which the kids are raised that is the problem. It may also be difficulty in getting cooperation from parents at home. Having not read the study, but my experience tells me that the main factor is the projects that many of the kids live in. I'll try to read it later (next week) and get back. FWIW, I taught white kids whose behavior was just as poor, but the much higher percentage of problems was with the AAs. This is when I taught in a very poor neighborhood.
In the second school, where the social and economic background was similar, there was no difference in behavior. None.

My gut tells me that it is the "projects" that cause the problem. The worst behavior came from kids who lived in the projects. I don't know the percentage of AAs who live in projects vs whites, but my guess is that it is higher.

Again, i haven't read the study yet. But, I don't think one person on this thread has blamed it on genetics or the color of the skin.

To all the people on this thread stating that black children are disciplined more because their behavior is worse than that of white children: What is your evidence for this? Where are the facts, studies, reports and statistics that bear this out? And, how would you explain it, other than the the implication you don’t have the courage to state: That you believe the color of their skin genetically predisposes them to violent and disruptive behavior? In which case, where are the studies that show this? Where, in the extensive genetic research that has been done over the past 70 years, has such a correlation been shown to occur?

Surprised to see the level of insight in this thread.

Thank you everyone

I haven't read the study--but, another thing occurs to me that could account for the difference:

Cooperation from home. Is it possible that it is more difficult to get some AA parents to meet with the administration and provide other alternatives?

I am the poster who taught in a very poor school with lots of kids who misbehaved. I certainly taught white kids who also were just as disruptive, but there was definitely a higher percentage of AA kids who were problems.

Later, I taught in a school that reflected the diversity of the United States in a capsule. Mixed colors, mixed abilities, etc. They lived in housing that was not racially divided, as well. Every kid had at least one working parent. While there were certainly discipline problems, there was no racial disparity. Again, this was a racially mixed class with kids from mostly lower working middle class. No racial disparity in discipline that I recall in the school. I would say that we had a fairly high percentage of AA students--but, far less than half the class. I'd have to dig out pictures to remember, but, my guess is @25%. No disparity in behavior or treatment.

The difference in the atmosphere of these two schools was significant. Not only was discipline much less of a problem, but the kids were far better prepared to learn and the academic achievement was significantly higher.

Anonymous wrote:Having taught in a school with kids who were very poor African Americans--many of whom behaved very poorly, I think the government is approaching this all wrong. These kids (first graders) would walk by other kids and hit them for no reason. Then, of course, there was a response. Recess was much pushing and shoving. We (the teachers) were told by a behavior specialist that the kids acted like this because they "do not have toys at home, and, so they manipulate each other." (That is a real quote, and this was many, many years ago.)

The big push by politicians, etc, saying that the kids need preschool may be helpful--but, that is not the answer in my view. i think there needs to be more parent education beginning before birth--but, certainly, at birth. Do not take it for granted that everyone knows that reading to your child is important. Do not take it for granted that people know how to speak gently to their children--that yelling can be harmful (although I certainly plead guilty there). Physical punishment is also quite common in the poor communities. Young, uneducated parents need to be instructed in ways to handle the children themselves. Going to preschool and coming home to a chaotic environment is not going to solve the problem.

Yes this. It's the home environments.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Student safety is my #1 concern.

Then you should want white kuds expelled at the same rate.

You should want disruptive kids expelled.
Why don't you?

I want white kids, black kids and kids with disabilites to be treated the same. Why don't you?

Yes. Which is to say, if white kids causes more disruptions, they should be punished more. Same thing with black kids and kids with disabilities.

What you're seeing instead is more backwards claptrap, which is to say, black kids and kids with disabilities are punished more, ipso facto there was racism/discrimination. Weak.

I want white kids who are just as disruptive to have the same discipline as black/disabled kids.

The same. How is that so hard to understand. White kids and black kids with the same offense get the SAME discipline.

What is the disciplinary difference between first-time offenders and repeat offenders? At some point, the kid needs to go. Not the first or second offense, but once a pattern has been established there is a serious issue that cannot and should not be swept under the rug.