Anonymous
01/29/2018 21:26
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
Depends on what "your" goal is. If you are looking for just an "enriched" program, then yes. But if the goal is to keep it as "gifted" program, then no. Gifted doesn't mean top 20% of your student body. An above average student who works hard to get that grade is not gifted. If that is no longer the purpose of CES (which sounds like it isn't), then it's fine to open it up to the more hard working kids. But, HGC used to be designed for those kids who were not necessarily the harder working kids, but the kids whose intelligence was really above and beyond but not necessarily hard working.
I think there's a misperception here. The CES/HGC program is purely test-in. It's not for hard workers or students with strong grades/recommendations; it's for students with outlying test scores (at least in relation to their local elementary). The reason for the name change is just political; there is no change to the rigor or content of the academic program.
Not yet. MCPS has already changed the test making it shorter and, presumably, easier. Yes, three years ago the program was purely test-in, but I don't think this is the case anymore.
My DD is currently applying (coming from independent). As far as I can tell, there is nothing evaluated other than the test. No grades, no recommendations, no interview. It's purely based on test results. Here's the form if you're curious: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/curriculum/specialprograms/elementary/CES%20Private%20School%20application%202018%2011-17.pdf
In terms of the test itself, the only thing they said at the parent information meeting was that they'd changed it to an online format, instead of paper and pen. I have no idea if it's the same length or difficulty.
Test is different. When DC#1 took it, it was about two hours, several sections. When DC#2 took it, it was 30min. The test scores you get back are different too. They use to break it out into 3 sections - verbal, nonverbal and quantitative. Now you get one overall score. If the test is the only thing they look at, wouldn't they want the test to be vigorous? I think they are using a more 'holistic" approach per the METIS report.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 21:07
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:16:06 is incorrect. Magnet starts in 4th, though as other PPs stated, the criteria for admission are less clear. Acceptance was clearly tied to HGC/CES test scores in the past, and no one knows whether that is still the case under the new evaluation system. My guess is yes, since that is the only truly objective information, in addition to MAP scores, and PARCC scores for middle and up.
Also, differentiation does happen at home schools. Reading and math groups are separated by level. Students in the top level do receive accelerated instruction, even if some schools do this much better than others. An accelerated math track, known as Compacted Math, is an option beginning in 4th at the home school as well.
4th, 5th is not Magnet. There's no elementary schools magnet.
This is semantics. The Center for Enrichment Studies, which is 4th and 5th, is a magnet program. It's just broken up into more centers than the 2 that exist at the middle school level. If you go to the MCPS website, the CES is described under the link "Application (Magnet)".
If that makes you feel good to say that your snowflake is in "4th grade Magnet ", be my guess. But real Magnet starts in 6th grade in MCPS.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 20:08
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
It's important to note that the GT programs in elementary school aren't intended as acceleration. With the exception of compacted math, which is also available in home schools to all students, the CES is just what the name says—"enriched" studies. So they go deeper into the subject areas, and approach them in different ways, but they don't move any faster. The curriculum in 4th and 5th grade CES programs is the same as the regular MCPS Curriculum 2.0. But they do learn how to research, they read more advanced books, and they present the basic concepts quickly, then proceed to apply them in more complex ways.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 16:00
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
Depends on what "your" goal is. If you are looking for just an "enriched" program, then yes. But if the goal is to keep it as "gifted" program, then no. Gifted doesn't mean top 20% of your student body. An above average student who works hard to get that grade is not gifted. If that is no longer the purpose of CES (which sounds like it isn't), then it's fine to open it up to the more hard working kids. But, HGC used to be designed for those kids who were not necessarily the harder working kids, but the kids whose intelligence was really above and beyond but not necessarily hard working.
I think there's a misperception here. The CES/HGC program is purely test-in. It's not for hard workers or students with strong grades/recommendations; it's for students with outlying test scores (at least in relation to their local elementary). The reason for the name change is just political; there is no change to the rigor or content of the academic program.
Not yet. MCPS has already changed the test making it shorter and, presumably, easier. Yes, three years ago the program was purely test-in, but I don't think this is the case anymore.
My DD is currently applying (coming from independent). As far as I can tell, there is nothing evaluated other than the test. No grades, no recommendations, no interview. It's purely based on test results. Here's the form if you're curious: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/curriculum/specialprograms/elementary/CES%20Private%20School%20application%202018%2011-17.pdf
In terms of the test itself, the only thing they said at the parent information meeting was that they'd changed it to an online format, instead of paper and pen. I have no idea if it's the same length or difficulty.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:55
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
Depends on what "your" goal is. If you are looking for just an "enriched" program, then yes. But if the goal is to keep it as "gifted" program, then no. Gifted doesn't mean top 20% of your student body. An above average student who works hard to get that grade is not gifted. If that is no longer the purpose of CES (which sounds like it isn't), then it's fine to open it up to the more hard working kids. But, HGC used to be designed for those kids who were not necessarily the harder working kids, but the kids whose intelligence was really above and beyond but not necessarily hard working.
I think there's a misperception here. The CES/HGC program is purely test-in. It's not for hard workers or students with strong grades/recommendations; it's for students with outlying test scores (at least in relation to their local elementary). The reason for the name change is just political; there is no change to the rigor or content of the academic program.
Not yet. MCPS has already changed the test making it shorter and, presumably, easier. Yes, three years ago the program was purely test-in, but I don't think this is the case anymore.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:33
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
Depends on what "your" goal is. If you are looking for just an "enriched" program, then yes. But if the goal is to keep it as "gifted" program, then no. Gifted doesn't mean top 20% of your student body. An above average student who works hard to get that grade is not gifted. If that is no longer the purpose of CES (which sounds like it isn't), then it's fine to open it up to the more hard working kids. But, HGC used to be designed for those kids who were not necessarily the harder working kids, but the kids whose intelligence was really above and beyond but not necessarily hard working.
I think there's a misperception here. The CES/HGC program is purely test-in. It's not for hard workers or students with strong grades/recommendations; it's for students with outlying test scores (at least in relation to their local elementary). The reason for the name change is just political; there is no change to the rigor or content of the academic program.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:32
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
We should open it more because all the kids are above the average.
Then it just becomes tracking and not a gifted program, which IMO, OP is looking for a gifted program, not a "above average" program. But since this is all that MCPS has now, then it is what it is.
That's fine with me. Selecting out 2-3% of young kids and calling them gifted, leaves too much room for false positives and false negatives. I'm happy to raise the bar for 20-30% of kids who may not be gifted but can benefit from more challenging coursework.
Right, but OP is asking for "gifted" program not "above average" program.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:25
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
How does the current CES program in 4th and 5th meet that description? While the way they select has changed this year, the number of overall students in the program is basically the same (with the minor change of having local programs at a few schools). What am I missing?
PP here.. I was addressing that other PP's comment about how MCPS is moving toward the AAP model in FFX, which takes 20% of students. However, I don't think MCPS's CES is really taking the top 2 to 3% anymore because of the name change and also because of the testing change.
Having additional schools in CES increases the number of students in the program, hence it's no longer top 2 to 3%. And this was a pilot, so they are going to open several more, thereby increasing the student population in CES even more.
The term "gifted" generally means the top 2 to 3% of an area. If this is an MCPS wide program, then the "area" would be the entire MCPS 3rd graders, and not just those in your school. I think it's great that they are opening more CES at local schools, but then it's no longer a gifted program, hence the name change.
Correct..MCPS designates 40% of their student as gifted..perhaps they need to change that definition because it creates the impression that the top 40% of kids needs some kind of special environment. If they just called it the top 1/2 no one would care.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:21
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
How does the current CES program in 4th and 5th meet that description? While the way they select has changed this year, the number of overall students in the program is basically the same (with the minor change of having local programs at a few schools). What am I missing?
PP here.. I was addressing that other PP's comment about how MCPS is moving toward the AAP model in FFX, which takes 20% of students. However, I don't think MCPS's CES is really taking the top 2 to 3% anymore because of the name change and also because of the testing change.
Having additional schools in CES increases the number of students in the program, hence it's no longer top 2 to 3%. And this was a pilot, so they are going to open several more, thereby increasing the student population in CES even more.
The term "gifted" generally means the top 2 to 3% of an area. If this is an MCPS wide program, then the "area" would be the entire MCPS 3rd graders, and not just those in your school. I think it's great that they are opening more CES at local schools, but then it's no longer a gifted program, hence the name change.
They're only expanding CES in certain areas, and not the most competitive ones. Unless they do it more uniformly, it will end up being an oddly lopsided model with larger cohorts of AAP-style gifted kids in some areas, and smaller highly gifted cohorts in others.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:21
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
We should open it more because all the kids are above the average.
Then it just becomes tracking and not a gifted program, which IMO, OP is looking for a gifted program, not a "above average" program. But since this is all that MCPS has now, then it is what it is.
That's fine with me. Selecting out 2-3% of young kids and calling them gifted, leaves too much room for false positives and false negatives. I'm happy to raise the bar for 20-30% of kids who may not be gifted but can benefit from more challenging coursework.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:18
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
Depends on what "your" goal is. If you are looking for just an "enriched" program, then yes. But if the goal is to keep it as "gifted" program, then no. Gifted doesn't mean top 20% of your student body. An above average student who works hard to get that grade is not gifted. If that is no longer the purpose of CES (which sounds like it isn't), then it's fine to open it up to the more hard working kids. But, HGC used to be designed for those kids who were not necessarily the harder working kids, but the kids whose intelligence was really above and beyond but not necessarily hard working.
We can soon join forces with Fairfax AAP which serves many more kids but parents say it does not actually serve the needs of gifted kids..just above average kids that could be accommodated in a typical classroom.
This is exactly what's going to happen in MCPS. They should've just kept HGC at the few centers the way it was, and have local programs at home schools.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:17
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
How does the current CES program in 4th and 5th meet that description? While the way they select has changed this year, the number of overall students in the program is basically the same (with the minor change of having local programs at a few schools). What am I missing?
PP here.. I was addressing that other PP's comment about how MCPS is moving toward the AAP model in FFX, which takes 20% of students. However, I don't think MCPS's CES is really taking the top 2 to 3% anymore because of the name change and also because of the testing change.
Having additional schools in CES increases the number of students in the program, hence it's no longer top 2 to 3%. And this was a pilot, so they are going to open several more, thereby increasing the student population in CES even more.
The term "gifted" generally means the top 2 to 3% of an area. If this is an MCPS wide program, then the "area" would be the entire MCPS 3rd graders, and not just those in your school. I think it's great that they are opening more CES at local schools, but then it's no longer a gifted program, hence the name change.
In terms of the current year, my understanding is that the only difference between CES and the old HGC is that when they make the selections, they are focusing more on whether the student has a cohort at their local ES. In other words, Student A at a poorer performing ES may get in with lower test scores than Student B if Student B is an ES where there is already a strong cohort. In that sense, they are weakening the quality of students at the CES by some amount. However, the number of CES spots is the same.
Yes, if the local school pilot were to become widely adopted, that would be a big change. However, at the moment, it's statistically insignificant so the CES program is close to the same as what it was before, as far as I can tell.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:12
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
Depends on what "your" goal is. If you are looking for just an "enriched" program, then yes. But if the goal is to keep it as "gifted" program, then no. Gifted doesn't mean top 20% of your student body. An above average student who works hard to get that grade is not gifted. If that is no longer the purpose of CES (which sounds like it isn't), then it's fine to open it up to the more hard working kids. But, HGC used to be designed for those kids who were not necessarily the harder working kids, but the kids whose intelligence was really above and beyond but not necessarily hard working.
We can soon join forces with Fairfax AAP which serves many more kids but parents say it does not actually serve the needs of gifted kids..just above average kids that could be accommodated in a typical classroom.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:03
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
We should open it more because all the kids are above the average.
Then it just becomes tracking and not a gifted program, which IMO, OP is looking for a gifted program, not a "above average" program. But since this is all that MCPS has now, then it is what it is.
Anonymous
01/29/2018 15:02
Subject: How does the GT program work in MD?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Md is moving in the direction of the FCPS model and they will be sorry
Why?
DP.. a program designed for the top 2 to 3% is going to look different than a program designed for the top 20%. The caliber of work won't be the same.
And yet people complain that there are many more kids that could be served in the MCPS gifted program. Wouldn't opening it up to more be one solution?
Depends on what "your" goal is. If you are looking for just an "enriched" program, then yes. But if the goal is to keep it as "gifted" program, then no. Gifted doesn't mean top 20% of your student body. An above average student who works hard to get that grade is not gifted. If that is no longer the purpose of CES (which sounds like it isn't), then it's fine to open it up to the more hard working kids. But, HGC used to be designed for those kids who were not necessarily the harder working kids, but the kids whose intelligence was really above and beyond but not necessarily hard working.