Anonymous
12/14/2017 14:14
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
I was at a Vault 20 firm in NY and DC for years. I know many female partners with kids aged baby through teenage years (let's say I know 10-20, to put a number on it) and husbands with similarly big jobs, either also biglaw or things like trial attorney at USAO. I know several women who made partner while on maternity leave or within a year of returning from maternity leave. Many of these women are in white collar or corporate, meaning travel or late nights can be a regular thing.
It's not the choice for me or for many other women, but it really isn't mysterious how they achieve it - any partner can afford to pay for a lot of childcare, and that's really all you "need." I'm not saying the workload doesn't lead to marital issues or kid issues in the tween/teen years. I think it does in fact contribute to those things. But there are plenty of women out there who give it a go anyway, and conversely plenty of men who opt out because they desire more family time/better balance too.
Like I said, it wasn't for me. But I am at a mid-tier firm now, I work 50 hours per week if you include commute and I regularly work from home in the evening, I travel some, my DH is also biglaw, and I have two kids 5 and under with a third on the way. I think I get plenty of kid and family time, and a less intense firm suits me. For others, this would be too much. Everyone kind of has to muddle through, set their own boundaries, and make their choices.
It's not the choice for me or for many other women, but it really isn't mysterious how they achieve it - any partner can afford to pay for a lot of childcare, and that's really all you "need." I'm not saying the workload doesn't lead to marital issues or kid issues in the tween/teen years. I think it does in fact contribute to those things. But there are plenty of women out there who give it a go anyway, and conversely plenty of men who opt out because they desire more family time/better balance too.
Like I said, it wasn't for me. But I am at a mid-tier firm now, I work 50 hours per week if you include commute and I regularly work from home in the evening, I travel some, my DH is also biglaw, and I have two kids 5 and under with a third on the way. I think I get plenty of kid and family time, and a less intense firm suits me. For others, this would be too much. Everyone kind of has to muddle through, set their own boundaries, and make their choices.
Anonymous
12/14/2017 14:01
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
Anonymous wrote:At my wife's firm she made partner with two kids under 4 years old. I work full time also 40+ hours a week, but I travel rarely and my schedule is more regular so I do daycare pickup and drop off every day.
In her practice group there are 3 other partners that I can think of in similar situations, that made partner with small children and have husbands that work full time as well, but mostly in more regular tech/government/consulting type jobs.
Most of the senior female associates and counsel have children as well. The typical pattern that I see is:
1) Graduate law school
2) work at a firm for a few years, and get married
3) Have kids when you are a 5-7 year and established in your practice area.
4) Make counsel
5) A few years later make partner
The degree to which you seem to have spent thinking about this is kind of weird.
Anonymous
12/14/2017 13:53
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I just made partner at an AmLaw 50 law firm. I have 3 young kids, had the first one as a first year associate. My husband has a 9-5 job, and is the one who handles pick-ups and drop-offs. Some things that have made this doable for me:
• When the kids are babies, we co-sleep so they'll sleep through the night, so if I'm sleep deprived it's due to work, not from getting up 5 times a night with a baby. This has worked really well for us, and kids all easily transition to a bed once they are past the baby stage.
• I ask forgiveness, not permission. If I want to leave to go to a school event, I go. If I want to work from home with my sick kid, I do. I've never asked for a flexible schedule, I've just made my schedule flexible. I've been at a few firms (due to moves, I've never been forced out) and I've always been able to do what I want. I just make sure I'm generally responsive. Men don't ask permission to take their hour in the gym at lunch or whatever it is, so don't ask permission to do stuff for your kid. It has worked for me.
• I don't try to do it all. My DH does a lot, bc I make most of the money. He could stay home if he wanted to but he prefers to work, and has a professional job. But he understands as long as I'm the one paying the mortgage, he needs to take on a lot of the house stuff. If his career takes off, I don't have a problem switching and I've told him that. The women I see burning out have husbands who make less money (so they can't afford to outsource everything) yet the women are still the ones doing all the kid-work. I don't get why women tolerate that crap. You are never going to get equality in the workplace if you can't even get it from your own spouse.
A lot of women (like me) work the crazy hours, but don't want to give up the kid work. My DH would do it, but I want to be the one to do it. Hence my lack of work-life balance and the fact that I'm always tired and feel a lot of mom guilt.
+1!!
Anonymous
12/11/2017 17:04
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
Anonymous wrote:I just made partner at an AmLaw 50 law firm. I have 3 young kids, had the first one as a first year associate. My husband has a 9-5 job, and is the one who handles pick-ups and drop-offs. Some things that have made this doable for me:
• When the kids are babies, we co-sleep so they'll sleep through the night, so if I'm sleep deprived it's due to work, not from getting up 5 times a night with a baby. This has worked really well for us, and kids all easily transition to a bed once they are past the baby stage.
• I ask forgiveness, not permission. If I want to leave to go to a school event, I go. If I want to work from home with my sick kid, I do. I've never asked for a flexible schedule, I've just made my schedule flexible. I've been at a few firms (due to moves, I've never been forced out) and I've always been able to do what I want. I just make sure I'm generally responsive. Men don't ask permission to take their hour in the gym at lunch or whatever it is, so don't ask permission to do stuff for your kid. It has worked for me.
• I don't try to do it all. My DH does a lot, bc I make most of the money. He could stay home if he wanted to but he prefers to work, and has a professional job. But he understands as long as I'm the one paying the mortgage, he needs to take on a lot of the house stuff. If his career takes off, I don't have a problem switching and I've told him that. The women I see burning out have husbands who make less money (so they can't afford to outsource everything) yet the women are still the ones doing all the kid-work. I don't get why women tolerate that crap. You are never going to get equality in the workplace if you can't even get it from your own spouse.
A lot of women (like me) work the crazy hours, but don't want to give up the kid work. My DH would do it, but I want to be the one to do it. Hence my lack of work-life balance and the fact that I'm always tired and feel a lot of mom guilt.
Anonymous
12/11/2017 11:04
Subject: Re:Big Law for moms: a survey
At my big law firm (at which I am no longer at because we moved) there were multiple women who had made partner with young children whose spouse also worked full time. This is an AMLaw 200 firm (so not top 100) but still had really great salaries, benefits, etc. I think it completely depends on the firm, but mine 100% did!
Anonymous
12/11/2017 00:55
Subject: Re:Big Law for moms: a survey
Big Law equity partner mom here. Had my kids as a mid-level and senior associate. DH works a similarly demanding job. I’m part-time and have been since my first was born. It’s not perfect by a long shot, but every time I’ve looked around or thought about jumping ship, I realize that the law firm actually gives me more flexibility than many of the other jobs I’ve considered where I would have to work set hours in an office. Yes, it can be exhausting at times, but there are also significant periods where I have a decent balance. I work from home regularly, get lots of time with my kids, particularly now that they stay up later, and rarely miss school events, etc. That said, I know my situation is somewhat unique and my sense is whether you can make it work depends entirely on your practice area, the partners you work with, the nature of your work (i.e., do you have to travel a lot, how often do you have emergency projects and deadlines, etc.). It also depends a lot on your home set up in terms of how much your spouse pitches in and who else you have in your “village.” It’s not for everyone, but I think it’s doable for some people without having to sacrifice spending quality time with your family. There are other women partners at my firm in similar situations, but I do agree that the majority of partners (men and women) have spouses working in jobs that are generally less demanding or not working at all.
Anonymous
12/10/2017 23:16
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
I just made partner at an AmLaw 50 law firm. I have 3 young kids, had the first one as a first year associate. My husband has a 9-5 job, and is the one who handles pick-ups and drop-offs. Some things that have made this doable for me:
• When the kids are babies, we co-sleep so they'll sleep through the night, so if I'm sleep deprived it's due to work, not from getting up 5 times a night with a baby. This has worked really well for us, and kids all easily transition to a bed once they are past the baby stage.
• I ask forgiveness, not permission. If I want to leave to go to a school event, I go. If I want to work from home with my sick kid, I do. I've never asked for a flexible schedule, I've just made my schedule flexible. I've been at a few firms (due to moves, I've never been forced out) and I've always been able to do what I want. I just make sure I'm generally responsive. Men don't ask permission to take their hour in the gym at lunch or whatever it is, so don't ask permission to do stuff for your kid. It has worked for me.
• I don't try to do it all. My DH does a lot, bc I make most of the money. He could stay home if he wanted to but he prefers to work, and has a professional job. But he understands as long as I'm the one paying the mortgage, he needs to take on a lot of the house stuff. If his career takes off, I don't have a problem switching and I've told him that. The women I see burning out have husbands who make less money (so they can't afford to outsource everything) yet the women are still the ones doing all the kid-work. I don't get why women tolerate that crap. You are never going to get equality in the workplace if you can't even get it from your own spouse.
• When the kids are babies, we co-sleep so they'll sleep through the night, so if I'm sleep deprived it's due to work, not from getting up 5 times a night with a baby. This has worked really well for us, and kids all easily transition to a bed once they are past the baby stage.
• I ask forgiveness, not permission. If I want to leave to go to a school event, I go. If I want to work from home with my sick kid, I do. I've never asked for a flexible schedule, I've just made my schedule flexible. I've been at a few firms (due to moves, I've never been forced out) and I've always been able to do what I want. I just make sure I'm generally responsive. Men don't ask permission to take their hour in the gym at lunch or whatever it is, so don't ask permission to do stuff for your kid. It has worked for me.
• I don't try to do it all. My DH does a lot, bc I make most of the money. He could stay home if he wanted to but he prefers to work, and has a professional job. But he understands as long as I'm the one paying the mortgage, he needs to take on a lot of the house stuff. If his career takes off, I don't have a problem switching and I've told him that. The women I see burning out have husbands who make less money (so they can't afford to outsource everything) yet the women are still the ones doing all the kid-work. I don't get why women tolerate that crap. You are never going to get equality in the workplace if you can't even get it from your own spouse.
Anonymous
12/10/2017 20:14
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
I know women who make it work and even occasionally see their kids, but they are in specialty areas like tax and T&E, where the workflow is fairly steady and predictable. If I had to do it over again, I would have gone into one of these areas. The time expectations in my area (general corporate) would have required me to hire a parent for my kids - DHs job is less demanding but he still has to put in fave time.
Anonymous
12/10/2017 10:37
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
I know two off the top of my head.
One has a husband with a similarly demanding job. Three young kids. Live-in grandparent childcare, someone to cook, people to clean, and also a nanny.
One has a husband with a much less demanding WAH FT profession. 3 young kids. She is an extreme go-getter. Have heard her DH complain about being the default parent and not getting to spend time with her. He represents that she is home for dinner most nights, but literally just for dinner, then returns to working from home until very very late. I don't know what their childcare supports are.
One has a husband with a similarly demanding job. Three young kids. Live-in grandparent childcare, someone to cook, people to clean, and also a nanny.
One has a husband with a much less demanding WAH FT profession. 3 young kids. She is an extreme go-getter. Have heard her DH complain about being the default parent and not getting to spend time with her. He represents that she is home for dinner most nights, but literally just for dinner, then returns to working from home until very very late. I don't know what their childcare supports are.
Anonymous
12/10/2017 10:26
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
There is a female partner at big law firm with three high school children, and is married to a partner spouse. She’s had all three children since becoming partner too.
I’m a 4th year with a 2 year old before lateraling and my DH works for a non-profit but travels a lot. I’m struggling.
I’m a 4th year with a 2 year old before lateraling and my DH works for a non-profit but travels a lot. I’m struggling.
Anonymous
12/08/2017 20:53
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wondering about Big Law partners who also happen to be moms of small children. In my experience (2 firms), there are zero. In my limited experience, female partners seem to fall into one or more of the following descriptions:
1. Single or divorced, no kids
2. Married, no kids
3. Married, with kids, and with a stay-home spouse (or spouse who has a very light professional schedule)
4. Women who have been partners for many, many years, and whose children are grown (but while they were young, she probably fit into one of the above categories)
I can't think of a single female partner who is happily married (or neutrally-married) to a spouse with a full time career with children under age 10. Or under age 15 for that matter. Looking for some anecdotes of other moms with young kids who have made this work.
- 6th year mom of 2 small kids, married to professional with 50 hour/week job, noticing all of the similarly-situated women around me exiting big law in droves
I am a Big Law partner with two kids under 4 -- made partner while on maternity leave with my second. Husband works, but less hours and job generally less demanding. Have amazing nanny and work from home most nights after kids are in bed -- same on weekends. It is totally doable, but you need a firm culture that allows working remotely, when possible.[/quote
I am impressed by your stamina. Bit very few people want to work at home in the evenings most nights and on weekends so I don’t think “totally doable” is the rigjt description, particularly when you have older children thar stay up past 8.
Anonymous
12/08/2017 20:47
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:At my wife's firm she made partner with two kids under 4 years old. I work full time also 40+ hours a week, but I travel rarely and my schedule is more regular so I do daycare pickup and drop off every day.
In her practice group there are 3 other partners that I can think of in similar situations, that made partner with small children and have husbands that work full time as well, but mostly in more regular tech/government/consulting type jobs.
Most of the senior female associates and counsel have children as well. The typical pattern that I see is:
1) Graduate law school
2) work at a firm for a few years, and get married
3) Have kids when you are a 5-7 year and established in your practice area.
4) Make counsel
5) A few years later make partner
Clearly you have a very unrepresentative view of biglaw or your wife is at a smaller or boutique firm. Women still make up a small fraction of equity partners.
During my time in biglaw, I saw the following types of women partners with kids.
1. Women who had kids before law school and kids were older by time they got to firm (usually law second career);
2. Women who had another family member stay home with kids, usually a dad or grandparent.
3. Women whose dh also worked, Jad full time help and were always trying to be a reduced hours partner, while never actually working reduced hours.
4. Women who made partner before having kids and then left for government or in house when they had kids.
most of the women I knew with kids left before being promoted, and about half of the women who were promoted to partner never had kids.
So now the goal posts have changed to equity partner? My wife is a partner at a top-40 firm.
That is what op is asking about. Much easier to make nonequity partner ( I did) and the demands are different.
DP: OP doesn't use the word equity anywhere.
I think from the context is does seem like OP is talking about equity partner. She is asking about whether what kind of family situation women have who have reached the highest professional level. Otherwise I imagine she would have specified that she was wondering if non-equity partners have better work life balance. Instead she seems to be asking about "having it all."
OP, my advice to you is that there are no prizes for taking the hardest road. My friends who are lawyers who are the happiest are those who went in-house or to the gov't. I work closely with a lot of lawyers at trade associations. They do really interesting work and can be very well-paid.
Anonymous
12/08/2017 17:04
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
Not that this is relevant to OP's question, but I'm a non-equity partner. I get a K-1, I put in a capital contribution, and I have voting rights.
Anonymous
12/08/2017 14:15
Subject: Big Law for moms: a survey
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:At my wife's firm she made partner with two kids under 4 years old. I work full time also 40+ hours a week, but I travel rarely and my schedule is more regular so I do daycare pickup and drop off every day.
In her practice group there are 3 other partners that I can think of in similar situations, that made partner with small children and have husbands that work full time as well, but mostly in more regular tech/government/consulting type jobs.
Most of the senior female associates and counsel have children as well. The typical pattern that I see is:
1) Graduate law school
2) work at a firm for a few years, and get married
3) Have kids when you are a 5-7 year and established in your practice area.
4) Make counsel
5) A few years later make partner
Clearly you have a very unrepresentative view of biglaw or your wife is at a smaller or boutique firm. Women still make up a small fraction of equity partners.
During my time in biglaw, I saw the following types of women partners with kids.
1. Women who had kids before law school and kids were older by time they got to firm (usually law second career);
2. Women who had another family member stay home with kids, usually a dad or grandparent.
3. Women whose dh also worked, Jad full time help and were always trying to be a reduced hours partner, while never actually working reduced hours.
4. Women who made partner before having kids and then left for government or in house when they had kids.
most of the women I knew with kids left before being promoted, and about half of the women who were promoted to partner never had kids.
So now the goal posts have changed to equity partner? My wife is a partner at a top-40 firm.
That is what op is asking about. Much easier to make nonequity partner ( I did) and the demands are different.
DP: OP doesn't use the word equity anywhere.
New poster here.
Ultimately this confusion is the result of firms misusing terms and muddling things. But it bears noting that, in fact, there is no such thing as a "nonequity partner." "Partner" in the context of a "partnership" means one who shares in the profits and liabilities of a venture. That is, someone who has an equity stake in the partnership.
A "nonequity partner" is in fact an oxymoron. Someone who does not have equity -- ie, someone who does not share in the profits and liabilities of the partnership -- is by definition, not a partner. "Nonequity partner" is a made up term to elevate the status of employees who are not actually partners.
You can be a party to the partnership agreement without holding an equity stake. Non-equity partners do exist and are a sort of hybrid. They don't profit share but are often responsible for their own insurance costs, e.g.
Partnership is defined as co-ownership and sharing of profits and liabilities. Non-equity partners are not considered "partners" under either partnership law or employment law.
Wrong. I am a non equity partner. I get paid on a k-1. I am a partner regardless of what you believe.