Anonymous
Post 08/29/2017 10:45     Subject: Re:Big law, big mistake?
OP, my own view is that it may be too soon to tell. Yes, you may have dug yourself a hole. On the other hand, you may be putting too much stock in this one associate's "overheard" conversation. Also, I have always thought persistence matters. It is very hard to navigate the Big Law world; we all make mistakes. You may still have plenty of time to re-steer your ship and recover, especially if there are other big partners to develop a relationship with.

That being said, I'm very curious about all these comments that are basically saying that once you mess up once at Big Law/make a bad impression, your path is ruined forever. I'm finding that hard to believe, but I'm only a senior associate. I have found that persistence matters; that you just keep plugging away. But perhaps I am unaware.

I'd love to hear if there are any Big Law partners/of counsel who have had an experience where they self-corrected and recovered from trip ups/bad impressions etc. and gone on to still be successful over the long run . Do you exist?
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 19:43     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I believe a bunch of big law lawyers are responding in this thread: too many sanctimonious personal attacks and too little in the way of useful advice going forward. This is what feedback looks like in big law; mostly personal attacks pointing out what you did wrong and very little advice on what hat you should affirmatively do in the future because the latter would actually force your reviewer to take a position on something.

1. If you continue to be slow, max out your pro bono hours to the extent that your firm gives billable credit to pro bono hours. If your firm gives unlimited credit to pro bono hours, don't go over 100 for the fiscal year.

2. Confront the issue head on. Ask this specific partner for work. If you continue to be slow ask to take on non-billable work from him/her, like prepping pitch books, writing articles, etc....

3. (A) Pounce on new partners and partners that lateral in to the firm. You should still have a neutral reputation with those people. (B) Suck it up and go ask the most difficult partners in your practice group for work. They sometimes have a tougher time staffing and there may be hours there for the taking.

4. Does your law school classmate know you came in as a second year? If he/she is a fifth year and beleives you are a fifth year also, your classmate could see you as competition and you should take things he/she says with a grain of salt.

5. Goes without saying, but don't delegate right now to the extent you don't have to. Your lower billable rate sort of helps you here and you can do work that would otherwise be appropriate for juniors/non-legal personnel.

6. Start applying for other jobs. You can claim you wanted to shift the focus of your practice group.

7. Whether you're slow or not, you don't leave early (whatever that means for your practice group).

8. They may be paying you as a second year but they are expecting midlevel quality work. Don't forget that.


Spoken like a true gov't lawyer/non lawyer. Sorry but those of us who are in biglaw who are responding are telling her the truth - that these impressions form quick and do not change and it is NOT fixable. She's free to follow your 8 step guide, but 99.99% chance the rain maker's impression of her does not change -- unless she somehow makes it rains and brings in a few 100k in business. So we're not picking on her - we're telling her to move on and telling her what she did wrong so she doesn't do it again at the next place.


Wow, this might be true, but honestly what surprised me most was that a partner had *any* opinion on a *2nd year associate* at all. In my experience it is possible to do totally mediocre work for the first 2.5 years and as long as sometime around year 3 you start impressing someone, you're fine. In fact, I feel like that first 2-3 years are there just for lawyers to learn the ropes etc. I'd say, OP shouldn't beat herself up about it, and now that she knows what she should be doing, she should start doing it. And she should TOTALLY dismiss what her "friend" said to her.


No. My mentor when I was a young associate told me to knock it out of the park my first six months and I could ride on my reputation for years after that. I did do well, but didn't ride on it--but his advice was good.

I am a GC now but was not counseled out...left for a better opportunity. First impressions matter.

Should they? I don't know but it is a good thing to do well for a partner and have them come back to you over and over, and fight for your time with the others. If they aren't doing this I would be scared in today's environment, and would lateral to get a second bite at the apple. OP can learn from all her mistakes at the next place. OP, move and be a superstar the day you walk in the door at the next place, and that includes billables if you want to make partner.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 19:05     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
It says a lot about your standing at the firm that you were not given credit for all of your experience. You want to go into any job having them feel like they're lucky to have you. Did not seem like that was the case here.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 19:02     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I believe a bunch of big law lawyers are responding in this thread: too many sanctimonious personal attacks and too little in the way of useful advice going forward. This is what feedback looks like in big law; mostly personal attacks pointing out what you did wrong and very little advice on what hat you should affirmatively do in the future because the latter would actually force your reviewer to take a position on something.

1. If you continue to be slow, max out your pro bono hours to the extent that your firm gives billable credit to pro bono hours. If your firm gives unlimited credit to pro bono hours, don't go over 100 for the fiscal year.

2. Confront the issue head on. Ask this specific partner for work. If you continue to be slow ask to take on non-billable work from him/her, like prepping pitch books, writing articles, etc....

3. (A) Pounce on new partners and partners that lateral in to the firm. You should still have a neutral reputation with those people. (B) Suck it up and go ask the most difficult partners in your practice group for work. They sometimes have a tougher time staffing and there may be hours there for the taking.

4. Does your law school classmate know you came in as a second year? If he/she is a fifth year and beleives you are a fifth year also, your classmate could see you as competition and you should take things he/she says with a grain of salt.

5. Goes without saying, but don't delegate right now to the extent you don't have to. Your lower billable rate sort of helps you here and you can do work that would otherwise be appropriate for juniors/non-legal personnel.

6. Start applying for other jobs. You can claim you wanted to shift the focus of your practice group.

7. Whether you're slow or not, you don't leave early (whatever that means for your practice group).

8. They may be paying you as a second year but they are expecting midlevel quality work. Don't forget that.


Spoken like a true gov't lawyer/non lawyer. Sorry but those of us who are in biglaw who are responding are telling her the truth - that these impressions form quick and do not change and it is NOT fixable. She's free to follow your 8 step guide, but 99.99% chance the rain maker's impression of her does not change -- unless she somehow makes it rains and brings in a few 100k in business. So we're not picking on her - we're telling her to move on and telling her what she did wrong so she doesn't do it again at the next place.


Wow, this might be true, but honestly what surprised me most was that a partner had *any* opinion on a *2nd year associate* at all. In my experience it is possible to do totally mediocre work for the first 2.5 years and as long as sometime around year 3 you start impressing someone, you're fine. In fact, I feel like that first 2-3 years are there just for lawyers to learn the ropes etc. I'd say, OP shouldn't beat herself up about it, and now that she knows what she should be doing, she should start doing it. And she should TOTALLY dismiss what her "friend" said to her.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 16:49     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
Anonymous wrote:To 14:29 this poster needs to get over it and also the chip on your shoulder. You've posted multiple times (your style is evident ). You're not in fact giving the OP clearheaded advice. You are jealous about the big law job you didn't get


14:29 here. posted once in this thread (at 14:29) and am a biglaw senior associate. for what it's worth (absolutely nothing).
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 14:36     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
To 14:29 this poster needs to get over it and also the chip on your shoulder. You've posted multiple times (your style is evident ). You're not in fact giving the OP clearheaded advice. You are jealous about the big law job you didn't get
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 14:29     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
no matter the rank of the firm, if a partner refuses to work with someone who graduated top 10% and came from the DOJ because that person didn't go to a top school, the partner is an idiot.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 14:08     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
I would go to the smaller firm OP. It doesn't sound like a good fit. Did you not go to a top law school? Some partners refuse to work with lawyers who didn't go to a top ten.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 13:47     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
look, maybe all the PPs are right and this isn't fixable. but if you're actually happy where you are, you should try to fix it. Hustle for work, bring up the hours, do excellent work. they brought you in as a second year; unless you have actively pissed someone off, it seems unlikely they're going to fire you tomorrow, even if they have no intention of seriously considering you for partner promotion down the line. And you probably don't want to leave after less than a year, for fear of creating the impression that something went horribly wrong. (which it didn't; this isn't failure; this is them not seeing you as future rainmaker or serious partner material. Most people in BigLaw are smart and diligent and zealous; most still don't make partner.) I wouldn't kill yourself trying to make this guy like you, but if you LIKE your job and it pays good money, I see no reason not to try to keep it.

So, my impression would be that you should do what you can to fix the impression that this guy has of you. But unless you start hearing something very different, start looking after you have been there a year or so. There may indeed be a better fit for you out there. In the meantime, keep networking.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 12:14     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
Anonymous wrote:I am afraid of getting fired at big law.

I started in December after a few years at DOJ. The firm is one of the top and asked me to come in as a 2nd year associate (instead of a 4th year). I took the cut which still paid better than GS.

Everything has been fine. I was asked to be a summer mentor and lead recruiting efforts and was told that I was a great representative for the firm. My reviews have been solid.

A month ago, another associate from my law school who I trust (and who is a 5th year associate) told me in confidence that she heard a head partner say that there isn't a "place" for me here. He has not given me work and seems to be noting that my hours are low (which they are). I've never turned down work but don't have enough and refuse to fudge on hours. She says that she's seen other people "pushed" out by this guy since he is the major rainmaker and thinks my time at the firm is limited.

I'm disappointed because I like big law -- the work, the people, the clients, the offices, the training, the free coffee on the floor, and, yes, the paycheck.

I've been kind of in a daze since this conversation. I'm not sure what to do. Am I just waiting to be cut? Should I be finding another job? Is big law not a good fit for me even though I love it? This is not an experience I ever had at DOJ.

I've been approached by a small firm with only 30 attorneys. Would that be a better fit?





I was in this position as a more senior attorney. I took paternity leave and got an in-house job quickly.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 11:39     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
I got a bad interim review as a first year because my hours were low. The firm wasn't getting much work at the time so everyone was slow. My office mate got it worse though because he was fired.

Anyways, worked picked up during the summer and so did my hours and I ended up making my hours for the year and I got a great year-end review. I don't want to understate that I worked a lot of hours to get my billables up.

Anyways, I think it can be fixable if you're able to get more work and willing to put in a ton of time to get your billable hours up. If you're unable to get work either because there isn't any work or no one is willing to give it to you then I think it's time to move on.

Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 10:50     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
Anonymous wrote:I believe a bunch of big law lawyers are responding in this thread: too many sanctimonious personal attacks and too little in the way of useful advice going forward. This is what feedback looks like in big law; mostly personal attacks pointing out what you did wrong and very little advice on what hat you should affirmatively do in the future because the latter would actually force your reviewer to take a position on something.

1. If you continue to be slow, max out your pro bono hours to the extent that your firm gives billable credit to pro bono hours. If your firm gives unlimited credit to pro bono hours, don't go over 100 for the fiscal year.

2. Confront the issue head on. Ask this specific partner for work. If you continue to be slow ask to take on non-billable work from him/her, like prepping pitch books, writing articles, etc....

3. (A) Pounce on new partners and partners that lateral in to the firm. You should still have a neutral reputation with those people. (B) Suck it up and go ask the most difficult partners in your practice group for work. They sometimes have a tougher time staffing and there may be hours there for the taking.

4. Does your law school classmate know you came in as a second year? If he/she is a fifth year and beleives you are a fifth year also, your classmate could see you as competition and you should take things he/she says with a grain of salt.

5. Goes without saying, but don't delegate right now to the extent you don't have to. Your lower billable rate sort of helps you here and you can do work that would otherwise be appropriate for juniors/non-legal personnel.

6. Start applying for other jobs. You can claim you wanted to shift the focus of your practice group.

7. Whether you're slow or not, you don't leave early (whatever that means for your practice group).

8. They may be paying you as a second year but they are expecting midlevel quality work. Don't forget that.


Spoken like a true gov't lawyer/non lawyer. Sorry but those of us who are in biglaw who are responding are telling her the truth - that these impressions form quick and do not change and it is NOT fixable. She's free to follow your 8 step guide, but 99.99% chance the rain maker's impression of her does not change -- unless she somehow makes it rains and brings in a few 100k in business. So we're not picking on her - we're telling her to move on and telling her what she did wrong so she doesn't do it again at the next place.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 09:28     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
OP, what Vault range is your firm? Is the small firm that contacted you made up of biglaw refugees (ie., a "boutique")?

If you are at a V5 (Skadden, for instance), you should be able to easily lateral to a lower V100 firm. If you are at a sub-V50, it may be harder for you to lateral.

Small firm may or may not be a good option. The risk there is that it's biglaw hours, nearly as much certainty for making partner, and significantly less money. Or it could be completely great.
Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 09:15     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
OP, I lateraled (more senior than you) about a year in and heard through the grapevine that there wasn't a "place" for me at my firm either. I tried to power through, billed a ton, worked my ass off, tried to impress the right people, networked, put in face time, yada, yada, yada and it did not work. It just delayed the inevitable.

These places make up their minds really quickly about people and if there's a hiccup, it never goes away. I think you should verify what your friend said (if possible) and start looking. Do it now - it only gets harder when you are more senior. (I'm in the process of looking right now and it SUCKS!)

One other thing, as a lateral, I found it extremely hard to fit in. The rainmakers in the group had favorites that they picked out years ago. Not summering at the firm was a huge disadvantage for me. I was never going to build the kind of relationships that others who summered were able to build.

Anonymous
Post 08/28/2017 08:51     Subject: Big law, big mistake?
Start looking