Anonymous wrote:I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if you can pay for the preschool you want, why don't you just do that?

Not the OP, but I can see several reasons why a family might feel this way.

1) Because LRE for their child means receiving specialized instruction and related services in an inclusive context. School systems that place students with disabilities in community preschools do so with support, special educators acting as co-teachers or itinerant instructors; push in and consultative services from Speech, OT, PT, etc . . . Simply paying tuition for a spot in preschool doesn't include these things.

2) Because they are probably paying a large amount of money for other services, and this is something that should, by law, be free.

3) Because federal law requires the school district to pay for this, and while it might be cheaper for the family to simply pay tuition, if the people who can afford to fight don't fight then the kids who can't afford private placement don't get what they're entitled to under the law.

Anonymous wrote:I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if you can pay for the preschool you want, why don't you just do that?

That is what I am thinking. What would you do if your child didn't have autism- you would pay for preschool because free public school doesn't start until kindergarten in most school districts. That is what we do because our son is high functioning and doesn't need a special ed preschool. Through insurance we get a bcba therapist to consult with his preschool teachers

This doesn't answer the OP's question, but in D.C., where there is not quite universal pk3 and pk4, the issue of LRE for preschoolers comes up often. It has for us. We are glad our D.C. is in an inclusive pk3 setting not a segregated noncat classroom.

Separate is not equal, we have found the hard way. Segregated classes just glorified babysitting way too often.

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly, in my 5 years on this journey (sounds trite) the biggest bill of goods I've been sold is typical peer exposure. It is the least important thing for my kid and in some circumstances, detrimental. That being said, at that age I fought the school system for other things with an advocate. You would then move to a lawyer.

I have a 12 yo and I tend to disagree. It is very hard to get some kids back into an inclusive classroom once they have been isolated in a Special ed only class.

I agree 100%.
Schools, especially FCPS, does what is most convenient for them and not what's in the best interest of the child. Placement is something that can have lifelong implications. We are fighting for an inclusive setting as well.

There is plenty of time for inclusion when the child gets to kindergarten and beyond.

Sure, throw them in segregated preschools only with SN kids during a crucial development stage of 2+ years, and then deal with the consequences in elementary. Winning strategy.

Is you concern that a three year old won't be able to observe and copy the social behaviors of typically developing peers? Or is a concern about academic skills or academic precursors? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm really trying to understand the crux of your argument. We have so many different options for children 3-5 here that quite a few kids with or without SN enter K having never had academics or long term peer group interaction. Surely they don't all have terrible consequences upon entering a typical K classroom?

The benefits of inclusion are more complex than simply "observing and copying" certain behaviors.

General ed classrooms are more like the real world, they move more quickly, the interactions between peers are more complex and more varied, the routines are more complicated, and kids often have significantly more choice. For many kids with disabilities these things are challenging, but they're also exactly the things they need to be practicing. It's not that they need to learn to behave like kids without disabilities, it's that they need to learn to interact with people who interact in the strange unpredictable ways that NT people interact, and to participate in the somewhat chaotic environments that NT people thrive in, because one day they'll be adults in a world that is built for NT people. There is absolutely no way to teach those skills in a special education environment, even if that environment includes a couple of "peer models".

-- Special educator who has taught in both kinds of settings

Thank you for saying this so well. I have a child who has been in self-contained and special ed only schools for years and the learning environment is so much less rich and complex than the general ed classroom. I think it is so important for kids to stay with their non-disabled peers as much as possible, because otherwise they get farther and farther behind every year they are isolated with other disabled kids. I have watched it happen.

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly, in my 5 years on this journey (sounds trite) the biggest bill of goods I've been sold is typical peer exposure. It is the least important thing for my kid and in some circumstances, detrimental. That being said, at that age I fought the school system for other things with an advocate. You would then move to a lawyer.

I have a 12 yo and I tend to disagree. It is very hard to get some kids back into an inclusive classroom once they have been isolated in a Special ed only class.

I agree 100%.
Schools, especially FCPS, does what is most convenient for them and not what's in the best interest of the child. Placement is something that can have lifelong implications. We are fighting for an inclusive setting as well.

There is plenty of time for inclusion when the child gets to kindergarten and beyond.

Sure, throw them in segregated preschools only with SN kids during a crucial development stage of 2+ years, and then deal with the consequences in elementary. Winning strategy.

Is you concern that a three year old won't be able to observe and copy the social behaviors of typically developing peers? Or is a concern about academic skills or academic precursors? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm really trying to understand the crux of your argument. We have so many different options for children 3-5 here that quite a few kids with or without SN enter K having never had academics or long term peer group interaction. Surely they don't all have terrible consequences upon entering a typical K classroom?

Yes. DC's goals are primarily social and pragmatic communication (getting peers' attention, following their lead in structured activities, playing cooperatively, participating in circle time, etc.) I have no academic concerns yet. Expressive and receptive language scores are good. DC can read and do basic addition and subtraction already.

I toured the dev preschool. The kids are pretty severely disabled, with severe social and adaptive impairments. It seemed that the teachers were mostly struggling to keep them alive and safe. In just 15 minutes I saw a kid lash out twice and smacking peers, hard. One was rocking and hitting his head against the wall. There didn't seem to be children with milder impairments (say a speech delay or HFA). I didn't hear a single child utter a sentence the whole time I was there. The BCBA said DC will very likely regress significantly in such an environment.

The district has Head Start AND community preschools; although there are a few kids with IEP in these preschools, they won't let my child in because we can't demonstrate financial need, FAPE and LRE be damned.

You have to decide if you are pragmatic and/or idealistic.

The pragmatic thing is for you to place your child in a part day private preschool now. Concentrate on what you can get from your local school system and then supplement the rest yourself. IME, children with milder impairments like you suggest (HFA and speech delay) do fine in a more structured academic preschool where the teachers are trained ECE professionals. I haven't seen children with milder issues have aides with them in preschools- those are for children with more severe issues. I would avoid the preschools that are co-ops or have one trained lead teacher and several other adults (usually mothers). A regular preschool will be doing many of the things that your child with HFA needs (sharing, learning to sit in a circle, taking turns...). I can guarantee that there will be a few other undiagnosed HFA kids there because at that stage many are still within the "behavioral norm".

You can tap into the vast network of parents of autism. They are the best organized group of parents out there. They are very well organized nationally, regionally and usually locally. If there is no local group, you can be the one that starts one. Once it is up and going you can meet with your local school board, administration....... to create relationships and work for change. This is where the change is happening in Virginia and FCPS at the moment (where we live, there are also groups that cover NOVA too). Groups of parents coming together,comparing notes, developing a strategy, prioritizing, developing and keeping relationships..... It is a long haul kind of thing where parents are working to move the bar incrementally every year. Hiring a lawyer and suing is the last arrow used in the quiver, not the first.

Change is slow, even with a lawsuit you will need to figure out what is the best thing for your child and do it privately if the school system refuses in the mean time. Your child will be well out of preschool before it is resolved. This is the strategy we used for our son. We fought hard for what we could get and supplemented the rest privately. We have seen change as our DC has moved through the school system and we have confirmation from the students "downstream" that things have improved. Their parents are working to move the ball further down the field.

My advice is to try to look around as see what is reality and push from there. You will stress yourself out and burn out too early if you try to make everything the way "it should be". I wish you strength, perseverance and serenity in the coming years.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if you can pay for the preschool you want, why don't you just do that?

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly, in my 5 years on this journey (sounds trite) the biggest bill of goods I've been sold is typical peer exposure. It is the least important thing for my kid and in some circumstances, detrimental. That being said, at that age I fought the school system for other things with an advocate. You would then move to a lawyer.

I have a 12 yo and I tend to disagree. It is very hard to get some kids back into an inclusive classroom once they have been isolated in a Special ed only class.

I agree 100%.
Schools, especially FCPS, does what is most convenient for them and not what's in the best interest of the child. Placement is something that can have lifelong implications. We are fighting for an inclusive setting as well.

There is plenty of time for inclusion when the child gets to kindergarten and beyond.

Sure, throw them in segregated preschools only with SN kids during a crucial development stage of 2+ years, and then deal with the consequences in elementary. Winning strategy.

Is you concern that a three year old won't be able to observe and copy the social behaviors of typically developing peers? Or is a concern about academic skills or academic precursors? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm really trying to understand the crux of your argument. We have so many different options for children 3-5 here that quite a few kids with or without SN enter K having never had academics or long term peer group interaction. Surely they don't all have terrible consequences upon entering a typical K classroom?

Yes. DC's goals are primarily social and pragmatic communication (getting peers' attention, following their lead in structured activities, playing cooperatively, participating in circle time, etc.) I have no academic concerns yet. Expressive and receptive language scores are good. DC can read and do basic addition and subtraction already.

I toured the dev preschool. The kids are pretty severely disabled, with severe social and adaptive impairments. It seemed that the teachers were mostly struggling to keep them alive and safe. In just 15 minutes I saw a kid lash out twice and smacking peers, hard. One was rocking and hitting his head against the wall. There didn't seem to be children with milder impairments (say a speech delay or HFA). I didn't hear a single child utter a sentence the whole time I was there. The BCBA said DC will very likely regress significantly in such an environment.

The district has Head Start AND community preschools; although there are a few kids with IEP in these preschools, they won't let my child in because we can't demonstrate financial need, FAPE and LRE be damned.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly, in my 5 years on this journey (sounds trite) the biggest bill of goods I've been sold is typical peer exposure. It is the least important thing for my kid and in some circumstances, detrimental. That being said, at that age I fought the school system for other things with an advocate. You would then move to a lawyer.

I have a 12 yo and I tend to disagree. It is very hard to get some kids back into an inclusive classroom once they have been isolated in a Special ed only class.

I agree 100%.
Schools, especially FCPS, does what is most convenient for them and not what's in the best interest of the child. Placement is something that can have lifelong implications. We are fighting for an inclusive setting as well.

There is plenty of time for inclusion when the child gets to kindergarten and beyond.

Sure, throw them in segregated preschools only with SN kids during a crucial development stage of 2+ years, and then deal with the consequences in elementary. Winning strategy.

Is you concern that a three year old won't be able to observe and copy the social behaviors of typically developing peers? Or is a concern about academic skills or academic precursors? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm really trying to understand the crux of your argument. We have so many different options for children 3-5 here that quite a few kids with or without SN enter K having never had academics or long term peer group interaction. Surely they don't all have terrible consequences upon entering a typical K classroom?

The benefits of inclusion are more complex than simply "observing and copying" certain behaviors.

General ed classrooms are more like the real world, they move more quickly, the interactions between peers are more complex and more varied, the routines are more complicated, and kids often have significantly more choice. For many kids with disabilities these things are challenging, but they're also exactly the things they need to be practicing. It's not that they need to learn to behave like kids without disabilities, it's that they need to learn to interact with people who interact in the strange unpredictable ways that NT people interact, and to participate in the somewhat chaotic environments that NT people thrive in, because one day they'll be adults in a world that is built for NT people. There is absolutely no way to teach those skills in a special education environment, even if that environment includes a couple of "peer models".

-- Special educator who has taught in both kinds of settings

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Anonymous wrote:Each child is so different. That's why it's supposed to be "individualized." Some kids benefit from inclusion... some not as much...

But back to OP's question...

It sounds like FCPS doesn't offer a gen ed inclusive pre-k at all. But... I wonder if you brought this question up with a lawyer what their take on it would be. It's very interesting. Does FCPS have to offer this type of classroom or pay for your private placement? Very interesting.

I think most of us go through a similar situation in other grades when we disagree with the placement offered. This does not automatically entitle us to private placement. I think the school system generally wants parents to try it out and see how it goes.

I don't think the OP is in FCPS, I know they have "gen ed" students in some of their preschools sothat there is an inclusive classroom for those special ed students that need it. They aren't well known to many people.

That's because FCPS does not share this information. All parents would want their children to be assigned to inclusive preschool classrooms rather than an all IEPntype noncat classrooms.

Anonymous wrote:Each child is so different. That's why it's supposed to be "individualized." Some kids benefit from inclusion... some not as much...

But back to OP's question...

It sounds like FCPS doesn't offer a gen ed inclusive pre-k at all. But... I wonder if you brought this question up with a lawyer what their take on it would be. It's very interesting. Does FCPS have to offer this type of classroom or pay for your private placement? Very interesting.

I think most of us go through a similar situation in other grades when we disagree with the placement offered. This does not automatically entitle us to private placement. I think the school system generally wants parents to try it out and see how it goes.

I don't think the OP is in FCPS, I know they have "gen ed" students in some of their preschools sothat there is an inclusive classroom for those special ed students that need it. They aren't well known to many people.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly, in my 5 years on this journey (sounds trite) the biggest bill of goods I've been sold is typical peer exposure. It is the least important thing for my kid and in some circumstances, detrimental. That being said, at that age I fought the school system for other things with an advocate. You would then move to a lawyer.

I have a 12 yo and I tend to disagree. It is very hard to get some kids back into an inclusive classroom once they have been isolated in a Special ed only class.

I agree 100%.
Schools, especially FCPS, does what is most convenient for them and not what's in the best interest of the child. Placement is something that can have lifelong implications. We are fighting for an inclusive setting as well.

There is plenty of time for inclusion when the child gets to kindergarten and beyond.

Sure, throw them in segregated preschools only with SN kids during a crucial development stage of 2+ years, and then deal with the consequences in elementary. Winning strategy.

Is you concern that a three year old won't be able to observe and copy the social behaviors of typically developing peers? Or is a concern about academic skills or academic precursors? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm really trying to understand the crux of your argument. We have so many different options for children 3-5 here that quite a few kids with or without SN enter K having never had academics or long term peer group interaction. Surely they don't all have terrible consequences upon entering a typical K classroom?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, in my 5 years on this journey (sounds trite) the biggest bill of goods I've been sold is typical peer exposure. It is the least important thing for my kid and in some circumstances, detrimental. That being said, at that age I fought the school system for other things with an advocate. You would then move to a lawyer.

I have a 12 yo and I tend to disagree. It is very hard to get some kids back into an inclusive classroom once they have been isolated in a Special ed only class.

I agree 100%.
Schools, especially FCPS, does what is most convenient for them and not what's in the best interest of the child. Placement is something that can have lifelong implications. We are fighting for an inclusive setting as well.

There is plenty of time for inclusion when the child gets to kindergarten and beyond.

Sure, throw them in segregated preschools only with SN kids during a crucial development stage of 2+ years, and then deal with the consequences in elementary. Winning strategy.

To add to what the PP said, the IEP team then makes the case that the child is not capable of functioning in a general ed K classroom, but needs a self contained. FCPS self contained likely means enhanced autism. And the likelihood of your child being in a general ed classroom are pretty slim. It's happened to is.

Each child is so different. That's why it's supposed to be "individualized." Some kids benefit from inclusion... some not as much...

But back to OP's question...

It sounds like FCPS doesn't offer a gen ed inclusive pre-k at all. But... I wonder if you brought this question up with a lawyer what their take on it would be. It's very interesting. Does FCPS have to offer this type of classroom or pay for your private placement? Very interesting.

I think most of us go through a similar situation in other grades when we disagree with the placement offered. This does not automatically entitle us to private placement. I think the school system generally wants parents to try it out and see how it goes.