Anonymous wrote:Amazing how many shitty selfish parents there are on this board. If your kid came out as lesbian, bi or gay would you also ship them off to "conversion" therapy?

Your kid coming out as a lesbian is vastly different from them realizing they were born "the wrong gender" based on the fact that they don't fit into 1800s prescribed gender roles

Amazing how many shitty selfish parents there are on this board. If your kid came out as lesbian, bi or gay would you also ship them off to "conversion" therapy?

Anonymous wrote:And about those suicide statistics that transgender proponents cite as facts...

They are based on a 2014 survey of 27 young trans people in UK (NOT 2000, which is the reported figure):

13 had previously attempted suicide

8 attempted suicide in the last year

"With no adjustment for co-morbid mental health issues or the fact that the respondents may well have found out about or been attracted to completing the survey because of their interaction with mental health services or history of suicide attempts, these figures should really not be extrapolated to apply to the entire transgender population.

Whether or not you think a sample size of 27 people is representative of an entire group and justifies the entire group being labelled according to the findings of such a small study, there is a glaring issue here. Mermaids, the support group for transgender children and their families, effectively lied in its presentation to a roomful of legal professionals. The survey was not of 2,000 trans people at all. Saying it was lends credence to a trope that is already incredibly emotive and potentially dangerous.

Bandying around these doctored statistics as facts does a good job of garnering support for the cause and strikes fear into people who might otherwise be less than supportive of certain demands by and on behalf of transgender people but at what cost? Are there not enough genuine arguments to further the cause for equal treatment of transgender people without resorting to exaggeration and obfuscation of the truth? Presenting this trope to families of transgender children and young people is nothing short of emotional blackmail. “Allow your child to transition or you will have their suicide on your hands.” In any other context threatening suicide in order to force others to accept your demands is emotional abuse, in the context of transition it is positively encouraged as a way to dismiss concerns of friends and family.

By announcing that trans people are an unmitigated suicide risk we are telling them and their families that they are likely to commit suicide. People are very suggestible. If you are told 50% of people like you will be suicidal, when you are having a dark day, instead of thinking tomorrow will be better, are you not more likely to worry that you’re going the way of all those suicidal folks and therefore spiral downwards? Parents who think their child is suicidal may treat them differently and make different decisions based on that information.

Suicide is contagious. Suicidal ideation is incredibly dangerous, especially for young people. There are guidelines in place for reporting of suicide for a reason and, in the main, the press seem to follow them with one glaring exception – transgender people. Surely transgender people would be better served with a positive movement like It Gets Better rather than seeing their advocates and support organisations constantly telling people that they are a danger to themselves."

You can read the entire scientific analysis for yourself here: https://www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

This one is a study of 5000 trans adults https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiG2N_aqpXUAhUL7YMKHQRsAXgQFggvMAI&usg=AFQjCNGKdHTlHkgpeVuDXrMqNvLMu0WTPw&sig2=1E7n0eciZjIDm7UsoHwRhQ

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I can say is there are going to be a lot of lawsuits in about ten years when all these kids realize the MDs sterilized them based on a trendy belief....and parents that blindly went along with this.

Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. There is no sterilization of minors (or adults, unless explicitly consented to) going on. Take your ignorance elsewhere.

Different poster here.

I'm not sure if you're genuinely ignorant of the facts or if you're purposely lying. If you're also the PP at 22:35 who works in the field, it's horrific that you're either unaware of what's going on or you are purposely misleading others.

Yes, there is sterilization of minors going on. Puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones lead to permanent, irreversible sterility 100% of the time. This is a scientific fact.

Unfortunately, this fact is ignored in almost all media reports (except for ones by conservative media, which I won't link to avoid concerns of bias), and even on health clinic websites that give information on pediatric gender transition.

Here are sources from medical professionals, psychologists, and reputable journalists that confirm this:
"Taking testosterone or estrogen immediately after blocking puberty will make a teenage patient sterile." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90273278

"...first treatments to suspend puberty, then a rare and radical course of hormone injections to slowly grow a teen’s body into its opposite gender. The hormone injections, which begin at about 16, make the child sterile." https://www.washingtonpost.com/drug-treatments-for-transgender-kids-pose-difficult-choices-for-parents-doctors/2012/05/19/gIQAxgakbU_story.html

"It must be remembered that puberty suppression as the first step to medical transition, if followed by cross-sex hormones, which has been the case for almost all reported cases, leads to infertility due to the permanent immaturity of the gonads and the reproductive tract." https://autogynephiliatruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/sadjadi-2013.pdf

A clip of the child psychologist who leads the UCSF children's gender clinic where she acknowledges that blockers + hormones leads to sterility, but says the solution is for parents to give up their dreams of biological grandchildren: https://vimeo.com/185178522

-------

Puberty suppressors block the development of gametes (sperm and eggs) and gonadal tissue to maturation, and if followed by cross-sex hormones, mean irreversible sterility. And according to studies and anecdotal reports (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/13/transgender-children-the-parents-and-doctors-on-the-frontline), virtually all children who go on puberty blockers continue on to cross-sex hormones. That means that although yes, puberty blockers on their own are technically reversible, in practice, they lead to sterility for almost all the children who begin them.

As far as age limits- although there are guidelines for when to allow each stage (age 11 for blockers, 16 for hormones, 18 for surgery), they are routinely not followed and many doctors push for them to be younger. There are 9 year olds on puberty blockers, 12 year olds on cross-sex hormones, and minors receiving genital surgery in the United States. This post is lengthy so I'll stop here, but if you don't believe me or want further information, I'd be happy to source every one of my claims.

I have a sibling who is infertile because of medical treatment (for cancer). I am glad he is alive and fertility is a small price to pay.
If a kid gets it wrong and goes on blockers and later regrets it and has to use fertility treatment, so be it. Better than making an error in the wrong direction and the kid kills him or herself. No way to visit Shady Grove and reverse *that* situation.

Anonymous wrote: I went through a phase of wishing I was a boy, dressing like a boy and cutting my hair short. Thank God it was before the "trans" fad. I grew out of it and I'm a married mother of two.
This complete thing is so overblown and extremely confusing and potentially harmful to children and adolescents.

There's actually a big difference between wishing you were a boy versus actually feeling that you ARE a girl and your body was made with the wrong genitalia.

Anonymous wrote:Lots of detransition stories here:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/detransition/

These people at one point really believed they were transgender. They really thought that transitioning would make them happy. They didn't realize the truth until the harm was already done.

Maybe for a small minority medical transition does make some people more comfortable living in their bodies. But with the huge increase in trans identification. it's obvious there is something else going on. And what these kids need is not medical intervention, but good therapy.

I read the detransition stories and stats, and I think it is comfirmatory of two strands of thinking in this thread: 1) many people have distorted and adopted what it means to be transgender to address a wide variety of issues related to gender nonconformity, general body image disappointment, social isolation -- all of which may be an element of being trans but more often relate to innumerable other problems; 2) I see little if any evidence that transgender individuals who have undergone appropriate counseling, reflection, social transition and then physical transition regret it.

An amazing 65% of women respondents reported having no therapy before physical transition. I don't dispute there may be some bad therapists out there, but this survey doesn't really go there. These largely are not the stories of the 14 year old surburban Washington kids I know through my children. Some of them are exploring - am I gay, trans, bi, pan, non-binary etc. I don't see many of those kids physically transitioning while still minors. Those few I have seen have discussed this for a long time with friends, later a long time with family, then generally with reputable therapist or gender clinics at major hospitals -- all before starting hormones. The most prominent breast surgeons in the DC area known to the trans community had only done a handful of minors as of just a few years ago. And most insurances don't cover gender reassignment surgery (bottom) for minors so it is hard to believe there is an explosion going on with that front. As of about 4 years ago, the then- director of the gender clinic at Children's Hospital said he's only seen one teenager who ever decided to have surgery detransition - and that change of heart came before the physical intervention. And that doctor had been in the field I believe 15-20 years at that point.

We need to keep the hysteria down on all fronts. Be vigilant as parents, question medical advice and get second (and maybe third) opinions, and have open dialogue with kids with gender issues. But we must not let distorted media or political agendas turn our backs on the kids who suffer every minute of every day --fearful of being themselves or even telling their parents - that they need to live differently in a way most of us can barely imagine.

8:12 -- it also runs both ways. I suspect, for example, some very masculine adult gay women starting over would see themselves as trans. I have a middle aged relatice who fits that description and came to this realization and basically started over as a transman of 40-something.

Agreed! Nowadays, if you have a young girl who refuses to wear dresses or a boy who plays with dolls, gender therapists will tell you these are signs they are transgender!

My gay friend told me if he grew up in today's world, his parents would have been told he was trans. I wonder how many "trans" kids today are just gay.

Honestly, what I question is the strong division of all facets of life into rigid gender roles. There is not a lot of room anymore to be a girl who likes trucks.

Anonymous wrote:Lots of detransition stories here:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/detransition/

These people at one point really believed they were transgender. They really thought that transitioning would make them happy. They didn't realize the truth until the harm was already done.

Maybe for a small minority medical transition does make some people more comfortable living in their bodies. But with the huge increase in trans identification. it's obvious there is something else going on. And what these kids need is not medical intervention, but good therapy.

Exactly. And strong guidance from parents.

Sometimes, you just have to say NO.

Lots of detransition stories here:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/detransition/

These people at one point really believed they were transgender. They really thought that transitioning would make them happy. They didn't realize the truth until the harm was already done.

Maybe for a small minority medical transition does make some people more comfortable living in their bodies. But with the huge increase in trans identification. it's obvious there is something else going on. And what these kids need is not medical intervention, but good therapy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I can say is there are going to be a lot of lawsuits in about ten years when all these kids realize the MDs sterilized them based on a trendy belief....and parents that blindly went along with this.

Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. There is no sterilization of minors (or adults, unless explicitly consented to) going on. Take your ignorance elsewhere.

Different poster here.

I'm not sure if you're genuinely ignorant of the facts or if you're purposely lying. If you're also the PP at 22:35 who works in the field, it's horrific that you're either unaware of what's going on or you are purposely misleading others.

Yes, there is sterilization of minors going on. Puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones lead to permanent, irreversible sterility 100% of the time. This is a scientific fact.

Unfortunately, this fact is ignored in almost all media reports (except for ones by conservative media, which I won't link to avoid concerns of bias), and even on health clinic websites that give information on pediatric gender transition.

Here are sources from medical professionals, psychologists, and reputable journalists that confirm this:
"Taking testosterone or estrogen immediately after blocking puberty will make a teenage patient sterile." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90273278

"...first treatments to suspend puberty, then a rare and radical course of hormone injections to slowly grow a teen’s body into its opposite gender. The hormone injections, which begin at about 16, make the child sterile." https://www.washingtonpost.com/drug-treatments-for-transgender-kids-pose-difficult-choices-for-parents-doctors/2012/05/19/gIQAxgakbU_story.html

"It must be remembered that puberty suppression as the first step to medical transition, if followed by cross-sex hormones, which has been the case for almost all reported cases, leads to infertility due to the permanent immaturity of the gonads and the reproductive tract." https://autogynephiliatruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/sadjadi-2013.pdf

A clip of the child psychologist who leads the UCSF children's gender clinic where she acknowledges that blockers + hormones leads to sterility, but says the solution is for parents to give up their dreams of biological grandchildren: https://vimeo.com/185178522

-------

Puberty suppressors block the development of gametes (sperm and eggs) and gonadal tissue to maturation, and if followed by cross-sex hormones, mean irreversible sterility. And according to studies and anecdotal reports (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/13/transgender-children-the-parents-and-doctors-on-the-frontline), virtually all children who go on puberty blockers continue on to cross-sex hormones. That means that although yes, puberty blockers on their own are technically reversible, in practice, they lead to sterility for almost all the children who begin them.

As far as age limits- although there are guidelines for when to allow each stage (age 11 for blockers, 16 for hormones, 18 for surgery), they are routinely not followed and many doctors push for them to be younger. There are 9 year olds on puberty blockers, 12 year olds on cross-sex hormones, and minors receiving genital surgery in the United States. This post is lengthy so I'll stop here, but if you don't believe me or want further information, I'd be happy to source every one of my claims.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not dangerous to identify as trans and then later identify as cis.

It is dangerous to identify as trans, not have family support, and do stuff like attempt suicide or run away from home.

There's no need to use clinical terminology. Just refer to normal.

As for no danger in identifying as trans -- are you KIDDING me? Have you seen the danger people who identify as trans are subjected to?

Actually, the need exists because of the exact thing you mention- the danger trans people are subjected to. Avoiding calling people who aren't trans "normal" by using the term "cis" (which is not clinical, btw) is one way to decrease that danger.

NP here. As a parent of a latter-teen trans kid, I have to say neither side of the debate above represents my family's experience.
First, I do agree the gender identity movement had been caught up with political and ideological issues bearing little relation to the fundamental reality of being trans -- feeling completely like you are the opposite gender of your genetelia and that every thing society requires of you because of your birth gemder assignment feels painfully, embarassingly, humilIating.
Second, I can only try to empathize with what my child experienced -- I can't walk in DC's shoes. But I bore witness to years of screaming, crying, fights over what to wear, where to shop, lies about things not fitting right because D.C. Was too young to even have the vocabulary to discuss being transgender, and more years when he had the vocabulary but knew how upsetting it would be to a parent and he hid it -- or thought he was hiding it -- from us.
Third, I accept that there may be gender therapists who see their jobs as just being supportive to a child although I found that insufficient to help a kid figure it out. Most therapists don't know what to do if they are honest. But I don't accept they can be responsible for a parent's regretful decision to allow a child to start hormones, surgery, puberty blockers, etc. When our child came out we affirmed we loved him and would "support" him -- that did not mean do what DC says he wants necessarily at that time -- that meant months of dialogue questioning, trying to understand, but also challenging DC's thoughts. We later spent months interviewing potential therapists (just as parents). Then came months of therapy before anything else. Next was coming out at school - gradually and then totally -- before medical Interventions.
Fourth -- furtility preservation. Early puberty made this possible. Earlier for physical girls than for boys, but more intrusive and painful and costly, but it can be done I believe for both genders after puberty. Whether to allow puberty to take hold is a tougher call, but thread above misleadingly assumes the debate is pre-puberty transition or wait until adulthood. There is a middle ground. Hormones can follow. I understand at least some leading hospital clinics now have this as part of their protocol to discuss -- not so a few years ago - should be best practice soon if not already at major hospital based clinics. It wasn't when we went through thiis some years ago, but we are parents. We asked questions before authorizing any treatment .
Fifth, the adult writer about trans trends in the link above probably would have been much happier if he could have transitioned fully as a young person. My teen will have at least some high school memories as the person DC is --after transitioning -- not hiding in a corner seen as weird boy or weird girl. Almost no one who meets DC now has any idea DC is trans based on appearance.
Sixth -- tying back to one above. If you view this as medical and not a matter of identity by preference, lot of the political noise and the explosion in the trans trend starts to fade away or at least greatly diminish. Real trans people don't seem to detransition -- these are people who probably were never trans in the first place but acting prematurely. But it isn't as simple as over 18 or under 18. A phase doesn't last 5 years. It is scary as a parent - there is no definitive test -- but take it slow, look at all the evidence, talk as openly as you and the kid can handle -- that buys some time until you have to decide. But sometimes the right decision is still under 18. Yes, it is a scary life altering thing to move forward physically. But it is also true that time marches on, and no one gets to do high school and their later teen young adult years over again. This is not an area for the dabbling how should I identify; but where there is strong evidence pointing overwhelmingly one way and the choices are spiraling down a rabbit hole or moving forward with what a thoughtful teen desparately wants consistent with multiple assessments, you take the step.
I have only empathy for any parent dealing with this; it is tough stuff. But my kid is happier now and healthier than most DC's age. DC has many friends, flirts like other straight teens of DC's gender, has done better in school to have this cloud lifted from the teen years, etc. I am not worried at age 25 DC will wake up and say shoot, I was wrong , should never have done that. But God forbid somehow that happened, I feel good that we did everything possible to make the best judgment we could to set DC's life in order to thrive and be happy. i would not regret the decisions made.

After an explosion in referrals for kids with gender issues, many therapists are starting to see the truth:

https://youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org/