Anonymous
04/04/2017 15:58
Subject: Re:any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why tuitions are so ridiculously high and why are acceptance rates so much lower than before. didn't the smartest kids go to Harvard 30 years also? why is then the competition so much bigger today? is it international students or what?
The most important reason is that there are simply many, many more high school graduates than there were in the 1980s and early 90s.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/12/06/high-school-graduates-drop-number-and-be-increasingly-diverse
(scroll down to figure 1.1)
This article from 1984 says:
The Census Bureau projects a 26 percent drop in the number of 18-year-olds, who continue to make up the majority of college freshmen, between 1979 and 1994. Fewer students would force institutions to raise tuition to make up for lost revenue. Administrators have been surprised and relieved that total enrollment of both full- and part-time students at four- and two-year institutions grew from 12.1 million in 1980–81 to 12.5 million in 1983–84.
Still, it is widely believed that enrollment cannot continue to defy demographics. Because roughly half of all 18-year-olds do not attend college, educators expect the 26 percent drop in their numbers to result in a 15 percent decline in nationwide post-secondary enrollment by the mid-1990s. Some experts predict that 150 to 200 small, liberal arts colleges will go out of business because of the enrollment slump. After 1994, the 18-year-old population—and college enrollment—should climb again as children whose parents comprised the post-World War II baby boom reach college age.
http://library.cqpress.com/cqresearcher/document.php?id=cqresrre1984072700
And from these two articles:
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/04/college-admits-2037/
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1980/5/12/yield-for-class-of-1984-may/
You can see the raw numbers: Harvard accepted 2148 students in 1980 (for the class of 1984). It accepted 2037 students in 2016 (for the class of 2020). Now go back and look at figure 1.1 in that first link, showing how many more high school graduates there are today compared with in 1980. And there's your answer.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 15:43
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The only problem is you need to spend those 80k on a many times overpriced tuition.
No, the real problem is that you need to spend not only that $80k that is being handed to you but an additional $200k on tuition.
No one is making you go, so you don't "need" to spend some amount on a school if you think it's "overpriced."
Your kids can attend a less-expensive school or a less-prestigious school that offers more merit aid. You just don't get to decide that any particular college has to accept what you're willing to pay in tuition.
Here's the thing that is frustrating for me as a "donut hole" family: A generation ago, if a student was admitted to a school, including an Ivy League or similar school, then the money would work out. Either the student's family could pay (because tuition was not insanely priced relative to household income), or they could pay with some help from the student (earnings of $2K over a summer actually made a dent in the bill), or they and/or the student could take out a modest loan equal to e.g. some fraction of what the student could expect to earn after graduation. A $500 or $1000 outside scholarship made another sizable dent in the bill. And so on.
Today, none of that applies. The cost of prestigious schools has skyrocketed such that a student's earnings in the fact of that cost are meaningless. A grandparent's graduation check for $1,000 doesn't make the tiniest of dents. Parents save for almost 20 years and still can't pay for the school of choice. Taking out loans to cover the difference between savings and the sticker price means being shackled to debt for decades.
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/a-dose-of-financial-reality/
So yes, kids can attend less-expensive schools or less-prestigious schools, and it's not the end of the world. But it is disappointing, because for a very long time those tradeoffs didn't have to be made by people who worked and planned and behaved responsibly with respect to financing college. And the effect is that the only students at prestigious schools are those whose parents can pay $70K X 4 years X # of children, and those who qualify for need-based aid.
Is this really what we all want?
This is a superb article, thanks for linking.
See also http://college-education.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005532
Anonymous
04/04/2017 15:36
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The only problem is you need to spend those 80k on a many times overpriced tuition.
No, the real problem is that you need to spend not only that $80k that is being handed to you but an additional $200k on tuition.
No one is making you go, so you don't "need" to spend some amount on a school if you think it's "overpriced."
Your kids can attend a less-expensive school or a less-prestigious school that offers more merit aid. You just don't get to decide that any particular college has to accept what you're willing to pay in tuition.
Here's the thing that is frustrating for me as a "donut hole" family: A generation ago, if a student was admitted to a school, including an Ivy League or similar school, then the money would work out. Either the student's family could pay (because tuition was not insanely priced relative to household income), or they could pay with some help from the student (earnings of $2K over a summer actually made a dent in the bill), or they and/or the student could take out a modest loan equal to e.g. some fraction of what the student could expect to earn after graduation. A $500 or $1000 outside scholarship made another sizable dent in the bill. And so on.
Today, none of that applies. The cost of prestigious schools has skyrocketed such that a student's earnings in the fact of that cost are meaningless. A grandparent's graduation check for $1,000 doesn't make the tiniest of dents. Parents save for almost 20 years and still can't pay for the school of choice. Taking out loans to cover the difference between savings and the sticker price means being shackled to debt for decades.
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/a-dose-of-financial-reality/
So yes, kids can attend less-expensive schools or less-prestigious schools, and it's not the end of the world. But it is disappointing, because for a very long time those tradeoffs didn't have to be made by people who worked and planned and behaved responsibly with respect to financing college. And the effect is that the only students at prestigious schools are those whose parents can pay $70K X 4 years X # of children, and those who qualify for need-based aid.
Is this really what we all want?
This is a superb article, thanks for linking.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 15:33
Subject: Re:any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
I don't understand why tuitions are so ridiculously high and why are acceptance rates so much lower than before. didn't the smartest kids go to Harvard 30 years also? why is then the competition so much bigger today? is it international students or what?
Anonymous
04/04/2017 15:00
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The only problem is you need to spend those 80k on a many times overpriced tuition.
No, the real problem is that you need to spend not only that $80k that is being handed to you but an additional $200k on tuition.
No one is making you go, so you don't "need" to spend some amount on a school if you think it's "overpriced."
Your kids can attend a less-expensive school or a less-prestigious school that offers more merit aid. You just don't get to decide that any particular college has to accept what you're willing to pay in tuition.
Here's the thing that is frustrating for me as a "donut hole" family: A generation ago, if a student was admitted to a school, including an Ivy League or similar school, then the money would work out. Either the student's family could pay (because tuition was not insanely priced relative to household income), or they could pay with some help from the student (earnings of $2K over a summer actually made a dent in the bill), or they and/or the student could take out a modest loan equal to e.g. some fraction of what the student could expect to earn after graduation. A $500 or $1000 outside scholarship made another sizable dent in the bill. And so on.
Today, none of that applies. The cost of prestigious schools has skyrocketed such that a student's earnings in the fact of that cost are meaningless. A grandparent's graduation check for $1,000 doesn't make the tiniest of dents. Parents save for almost 20 years and still can't pay for the school of choice. Taking out loans to cover the difference between savings and the sticker price means being shackled to debt for decades.
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/a-dose-of-financial-reality/
So yes, kids can attend less-expensive schools or less-prestigious schools, and it's not the end of the world. But it is disappointing, because for a very long time those tradeoffs didn't have to be made by people who worked and planned and behaved responsibly with respect to financing college. And the effect is that the only students at prestigious schools are those whose parents can pay $70K X 4 years X # of children, and those who qualify for need-based aid.
Is this really what we all want?
Anonymous
04/04/2017 14:26
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:But the fact remains that you are making over $200,000 with only one kid in college, and were offered $20,000 per year in aid that doesn't need to be paid back! I find that amazingly generous, and I certainly would be happy to get $80,000 (over four years) handed to me!!
The fact also remains that the student's family is responsible for $51K plus increases for four years. A family making $220K may not be able to handle that.
Exactly the situation we are in. HHI $220, 4 DCs, two of whom are in college right now and the 3rd a HS senior. DC#1 about to graduate from an out of state SLAC with enough merit aid to make the cost the same as in state. DC#2 in state and two more years to go. DC#3 awarded generous merit money at, among others, 3 colleges in top 30 USNWR private liberal arts colleges. He likely will not be attending any of those 3 because he was awarded merit only, not financial aid, and we simply cannot come up with the extra $50K+ for four years.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 13:05
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:But the fact remains that you are making over $200,000 with only one kid in college, and were offered $20,000 per year in aid that doesn't need to be paid back! I find that amazingly generous, and I certainly would be happy to get $80,000 (over four years) handed to me!!
The fact also remains that the student's family is responsible for $51K plus increases for four years. A family making $220K may not be able to handle that.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 12:45
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It depends on so much more than just income. When touring some of the super-elite schools (Princeton comes to mind), they gave percentages of how many families making over $200k received aid (something like 20%) and what their average financial aid packages were (something like $20k, and none of it was loans). So clearly there are some families making over $200k that are getting significant aid from the schools with huge endowments. Princeton wasn't the only one.
Keep in mind that families over $200k may be getting financial aid, but it may be an amount that does not put much of a dent in a $70k price tag. Also, it's not useful to know that there are families over $200k getting financial aid if you don't know how many children those families have in college. We make $220k with a family of four, but only one in college. Our expected family contribution is $51k. That means that DS received financial aid worth almost $20k from an Ivy, but we still were left with having to pay ~$51k. And if both are kids had been in college that year, DS would have gotten more financial aid, but we'd have been paying more than $51k out of pocket in tuition payments for both kids. So don't kid yourself about what "financial aid" means for families in this income bracket.
If you don't mind sharing, for the $20,000 in aid that you were offered, was that grants or loans? It sounds like other posters with similar incomes were not even offered that amount of financial aid, so I guess it is worth it to fill out the FAFSA.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 12:29
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The only problem is you need to spend those 80k on a many times overpriced tuition.
No, the real problem is that you need to spend not only that $80k that is being handed to you but an additional $200k on tuition.
No one is making you go, so you don't "need" to spend some amount on a school if you think it's "overpriced."
Your kids can attend a less-expensive school or a less-prestigious school that offers more merit aid. You just don't get to decide that any particular college has to accept what you're willing to pay in tuition.
I'm not sure who you are arguing with. It seems we are talking past each other. No one said they were being forced to pay anything. What people are saying is how much they would have to pay to attend an elite college that doesn't offer merit aid, and whether or not they think that amount is affordable for their UMC family.
My child does attend a less-prestigious school that offered him significant merit aid, and we are all very happy with this outcome. I feel fortunate that he had this option.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 12:19
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The only problem is you need to spend those 80k on a many times overpriced tuition.
No, the real problem is that you need to spend not only that $80k that is being handed to you but an additional $200k on tuition.
No one is making you go, so you don't "need" to spend some amount on a school if you think it's "overpriced."
Your kids can attend a less-expensive school or a less-prestigious school that offers more merit aid. You just don't get to decide that any particular college has to accept what you're willing to pay in tuition.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 12:05
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:But the fact remains that you are making over $200,000 with only one kid in college, and were offered $20,000 per year in aid that doesn't need to be paid back! I find that amazingly generous, and I certainly would be happy to get $80,000 (over four years) handed to me!!
The only problem is you need to spend those 80k on a many times overpriced tuition.
No, the real problem is that you need to spend not only that $80k that is being handed to you but an additional $200k on tuition.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 12:04
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:But the fact remains that you are making over $200,000 with only one kid in college, and were offered $20,000 per year in aid that doesn't need to be paid back! I find that amazingly generous, and I certainly would be happy to get $80,000 (over four years) handed to me!!
I for one am not complaining. I feel very fortunate in my life's circumstances.
I am simply stating a fact: In our opinion, we cannot afford to spend $50,000 a year for 8 years to send our children to college. (Our kids are 4 years apart, so won't overlap in college.) *Could* we do it? Sure, I suppose we could figure out a way to do it. But *can we afford it* is a different question.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 11:58
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:But the fact remains that you are making over $200,000 with only one kid in college, and were offered $20,000 per year in aid that doesn't need to be paid back! I find that amazingly generous, and I certainly would be happy to get $80,000 (over four years) handed to me!!
The only problem is you need to spend those 80k on a many times overpriced tuition.
Anonymous
04/04/2017 11:44
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
But the fact remains that you are making over $200,000 with only one kid in college, and were offered $20,000 per year in aid that doesn't need to be paid back! I find that amazingly generous, and I certainly would be happy to get $80,000 (over four years) handed to me!!
Anonymous
04/04/2017 11:09
Subject: any surprises in terms of financial aid for upper middle class kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It depends on so much more than just income. When touring some of the super-elite schools (Princeton comes to mind), they gave percentages of how many families making over $200k received aid (something like 20%) and what their average financial aid packages were (something like $20k, and none of it was loans). So clearly there are some families making over $200k that are getting significant aid from the schools with huge endowments. Princeton wasn't the only one.
Keep in mind that families over $200k may be getting financial aid, but it may be an amount that does not put much of a dent in a $70k price tag. Also, it's not useful to know that there are families over $200k getting financial aid if you don't know how many children those families have in college. We make $220k with a family of four, but only one in college. Our expected family contribution is $51k. That means that DS received financial aid worth almost $20k from an Ivy, but we still were left with having to pay ~$51k. And if both are kids had been in college that year, DS would have gotten more financial aid, but we'd have been paying more than $51k out of pocket in tuition payments for both kids. So don't kid yourself about what "financial aid" means for families in this income bracket.
^^both OUR kids. Jeez, LOL.