Anonymous
04/06/2017 11:25
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:[guardian]Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SO what's the point of praying, if God figured everything out at the creation?
There's no point to praying at all if you are doing it to ask for something. But people would pray anyway because there is a natural tendency to believe in something perfect which should be worshiped. Descartes described God as the sum of all perfections and said that there is a natural urge to believe in such a Being. Kant said that there is a natural tendency to believe in a Being consisting of solely positive predicates, something of total being. There is a natural urge to worship such a Being.
For some people, maybe. Just because Descartes said it, doesn't make it true.
It's not true because Descartes said it, Descartes said it because it's true. So did many other highly regarded theologians, like St. Augustine, St. Boethius, St. Albertus Magnus, St. Thomas Aquinus, Immanuel Kant, and the list goes on and on. Furthermore, it doesn't apply to everyone, of course there are atheists who feel no such natural urge. But people will continue to pray. The vast majority of Christians know absolutely nothing about Christianity. Most have never studied any theology. In fact, the vast majority of Christians have never even red the Bible, only snippets of it. But even those few who have read the Bible have read the King James Version, which is basically one big mistranslation. King James wanted an English version of the Bible which incorporated the beautiful poetic sense of the original, which had been lost in the Great Bible of King Henry VIII. It is certainly true that, in my opinion anyway, King James did produce a version with much more beautiful English than King Henry's version. But he did so by grossly mistranslating the original. All English versions are full of mistranslations because the monks who translated it did not know Hebrew very well. But the King James Version is especially bad because the monks purposely mistranslated it so that the English would read better.
But how do we know we can trust these people, even though they were highly regarded? They didn't do any empirical studies to indicate they were correct. It's simply opinion. In contrast, what you say about the various translations can be studied and shown to be accurate (or not).
You say that it's pointless to pray to ask for something, but that's exactly the reason a lot of people pray and have been taught to pray and why they say that sometimes their prayers are answered. Are you saying all those people are wrong to pray that way and that their experience of having their prayers answered is wrong?
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It sounds like it, but I doubt that people who feel they have had their prayers answered would agree.
Of course many people pray for certain outcomes. They know nothing of theology. Sometimes life turns out the way they prayed for, sometimes not. The fact that the person prays for a certain outcome has nothing to do with how the outcome turned out. But if the outcome turns out the way they wanted, they will undoubtedly believe that it happened because they prayed. If it doesn't, well, it doesn't. People believe what they want. For example, I am a prominent member of the National Stuttering Association. Science has now shown us that 80% of children who stutter will grow out of it naturally. If the parent sends such a child to a speech therapist and the child naturally grows out of it, the therapist will claim to have cured the child and the grateful parents will believe it, when in fact stuttering cannot be cured. The child was simply one of the 80% who grew out of it naturally. It's the same thing with prayer, if things turn out the way that the person prayed for, he will think it happened because he prayed. If things don't work out, well, that's how it goes.
Anonymous
04/06/2017 10:54
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
[guardian]
But how do we know we can trust these people, even though they were highly regarded? They didn't do any empirical studies to indicate they were correct. It's simply opinion. In contrast, what you say about the various translations can be studied and shown to be accurate (or not).
You say that it's pointless to pray to ask for something, but that's exactly the reason a lot of people pray and have been taught to pray and why they say that sometimes their prayers are answered. Are you saying all those people are wrong to pray that way and that their experience of having their prayers answered is wrong?
It sounds like it, but I doubt that people who feel they have had their prayers answered would agree.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SO what's the point of praying, if God figured everything out at the creation?
There's no point to praying at all if you are doing it to ask for something. But people would pray anyway because there is a natural tendency to believe in something perfect which should be worshiped. Descartes described God as the sum of all perfections and said that there is a natural urge to believe in such a Being. Kant said that there is a natural tendency to believe in a Being consisting of solely positive predicates, something of total being. There is a natural urge to worship such a Being.
For some people, maybe. Just because Descartes said it, doesn't make it true.
It's not true because Descartes said it, Descartes said it because it's true. So did many other highly regarded theologians, like St. Augustine, St. Boethius, St. Albertus Magnus, St. Thomas Aquinus, Immanuel Kant, and the list goes on and on. Furthermore, it doesn't apply to everyone, of course there are atheists who feel no such natural urge. But people will continue to pray. The vast majority of Christians know absolutely nothing about Christianity. Most have never studied any theology. In fact, the vast majority of Christians have never even red the Bible, only snippets of it. But even those few who have read the Bible have read the King James Version, which is basically one big mistranslation. King James wanted an English version of the Bible which incorporated the beautiful poetic sense of the original, which had been lost in the Great Bible of King Henry VIII. It is certainly true that, in my opinion anyway, King James did produce a version with much more beautiful English than King Henry's version. But he did so by grossly mistranslating the original. All English versions are full of mistranslations because the monks who translated it did not know Hebrew very well. But the King James Version is especially bad because the monks purposely mistranslated it so that the English would read better.
But how do we know we can trust these people, even though they were highly regarded? They didn't do any empirical studies to indicate they were correct. It's simply opinion. In contrast, what you say about the various translations can be studied and shown to be accurate (or not).
You say that it's pointless to pray to ask for something, but that's exactly the reason a lot of people pray and have been taught to pray and why they say that sometimes their prayers are answered. Are you saying all those people are wrong to pray that way and that their experience of having their prayers answered is wrong?
It sounds like it, but I doubt that people who feel they have had their prayers answered would agree.
Anonymous
04/06/2017 08:08
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SO what's the point of praying, if God figured everything out at the creation?
There's no point to praying at all if you are doing it to ask for something. But people would pray anyway because there is a natural tendency to believe in something perfect which should be worshiped. Descartes described God as the sum of all perfections and said that there is a natural urge to believe in such a Being. Kant said that there is a natural tendency to believe in a Being consisting of solely positive predicates, something of total being. There is a natural urge to worship such a Being.
For some people, maybe. Just because Descartes said it, doesn't make it true.
It's not true because Descartes said it, Descartes said it because it's true. So did many other highly regarded theologians, like St. Augustine, St. Boethius, St. Albertus Magnus, St. Thomas Aquinus, Immanuel Kant, and the list goes on and on. Furthermore, it doesn't apply to everyone, of course there are atheists who feel no such natural urge. But people will continue to pray. The vast majority of Christians know absolutely nothing about Christianity. Most have never studied any theology. In fact, the vast majority of Christians have never even red the Bible, only snippets of it. But even those few who have read the Bible have read the King James Version, which is basically one big mistranslation. King James wanted an English version of the Bible which incorporated the beautiful poetic sense of the original, which had been lost in the Great Bible of King Henry VIII. It is certainly true that, in my opinion anyway, King James did produce a version with much more beautiful English than King Henry's version. But he did so by grossly mistranslating the original. All English versions are full of mistranslations because the monks who translated it did not know Hebrew very well. But the King James Version is especially bad because the monks purposely mistranslated it so that the English would read better.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 21:14
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:SO what's the point of praying, if God figured everything out at the creation?
There's no point to praying at all if you are doing it to ask for something. But people would pray anyway because there is a natural tendency to believe in something perfect which should be worshiped. Descartes described God as the sum of all perfections and said that there is a natural urge to believe in such a Being. Kant said that there is a natural tendency to believe in a Being consisting of solely positive predicates, something of total being. There is a natural urge to worship such a Being.
For some people, maybe. Just because Descartes said it, doesn't make it true.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 20:55
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:SO what's the point of praying, if God figured everything out at the creation?
There's no point to praying at all if you are doing it to ask for something. But people would pray anyway because there is a natural tendency to believe in something perfect which should be worshiped. Descartes described God as the sum of all perfections and said that there is a natural urge to believe in such a Being. Kant said that there is a natural tendency to believe in a Being consisting of solely positive predicates, something of total being. There is a natural urge to worship such a Being.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 20:11
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
SO what's the point of praying, if God figured everything out at the creation?
Anonymous
04/05/2017 18:58
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:from pp who asked for the citation. I did see the whole thing and don't think it made your point.
Also, it sounds like you are saying that a person who prays frequently is more likely to get their prayers answered than a person who only prays occasionally, when they really want something. It still sounds like trying to get in good with god so he'll give you more stuff, which makes god sound more human than godly, and not a very nice human, at that.
Well, the Bible was written by humans, so it's not so strange that it would reflect some selfish human thinking.
Much in the Bible cannot be taken literally. Luke Chapter 11 is one such passage. If one could take it literally, all my health problems and my child's special needs would be gone. Nothing in the Bible says that you can wear God down. In fact, you cannot even change God's mind because God is immutable in time. Since the dawn of time He already knew everything that was going to happen because He all knowing. To God, time is one eternal present.
How do you know that? Did you learn it somewhere? If so, what is your source of information and how do you know it's reliable?
St. Augustine taught that God is immutable in time and space by necessity because any being that is mutable is not perfect. If God could change His mind, he could not be all knowing because he could not know what His opinion might be from one day to the next. Angels are mutable in time but not space. Humans are mutable in both time and space. The Bible makes this clear:
"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19).
"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).
"They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end" (Psalm 102:26-27).
"Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please’" (Isaiah 46:10-11).
“I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed" (Malachi 3:6).
God is Immutable – New Testament Verses
"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself" (2 Timothy 2:11-13).
"God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged" (Hebrews 6:18).
"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" (James 1:17).
"He also says, 'In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end'” (Hebrews 1:10-12).
"Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus 1:1-2).
St. Boethius also taught that God is immutable in time and sees all time as one eternal present. The only way anything could change is if God already planned the change when He created the universe.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 18:20
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:from pp who asked for the citation. I did see the whole thing and don't think it made your point.
Also, it sounds like you are saying that a person who prays frequently is more likely to get their prayers answered than a person who only prays occasionally, when they really want something. It still sounds like trying to get in good with god so he'll give you more stuff, which makes god sound more human than godly, and not a very nice human, at that.
Well, the Bible was written by humans, so it's not so strange that it would reflect some selfish human thinking.
Much in the Bible cannot be taken literally. Luke Chapter 11 is one such passage. If one could take it literally, all my health problems and my child's special needs would be gone. Nothing in the Bible says that you can wear God down. In fact, you cannot even change God's mind because God is immutable in time. Since the dawn of time He already knew everything that was going to happen because He all knowing. To God, time is one eternal present.
How do you know that? Did you learn it somewhere? If so, what is your source of information and how do you know it's reliable?
St. Augustine taught that God is immutable in time and space by necessity because any being that is mutable is not perfect. If God could change His mind, he could not be all knowing because he could not know what His opinion might be from one day to the next. Angels are mutable in time but not space. Humans are mutable in both time and space. The Bible makes this clear:
"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19).
"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).
"They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end" (Psalm 102:26-27).
"Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please’" (Isaiah 46:10-11).
“I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed" (Malachi 3:6).
God is Immutable – New Testament Verses
"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself" (2 Timothy 2:11-13).
"God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged" (Hebrews 6:18).
"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" (James 1:17).
"He also says, 'In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end'” (Hebrews 1:10-12).
"Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus 1:1-2).
Anonymous
04/05/2017 17:39
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:from pp who asked for the citation. I did see the whole thing and don't think it made your point.
Also, it sounds like you are saying that a person who prays frequently is more likely to get their prayers answered than a person who only prays occasionally, when they really want something. It still sounds like trying to get in good with god so he'll give you more stuff, which makes god sound more human than godly, and not a very nice human, at that.
Well, the Bible was written by humans, so it's not so strange that it would reflect some selfish human thinking.
Jesus is clear in the Bible that you can come to God the Father only through Him. In Romans 8, we learn that the Holy Spirit prays for us when we pray, and He prays with a perfect understanding of God's will since He is God Himself. So the point of "wearing God down" isn't made, but God does respond when we pray, and since the Holy Spirit is praying for us with this perfect understanding, God is answering prayer in His perfect way. From our inadequate understanding, we may not be getting what we explicitly ask for, but God IS answering our prayer in the best way. I get that non-believers have a problem with this (How can God allow so much suffering and call it good), but the Bible also teaches that there is purpose in suffering. Christ Himself suffered immeasurably -- He died for the sins of mankind. God understands suffering. But we can be assured that your prayers are being answered. This is Jesus's point in Luke 11: God would not give you something bad when you ask for something good; indeed, He gives Himself when you pray. You can pray for wisdom, peace, strength, understanding, patience, love, kindness, all these things, and we are told that God will not withhold these things. We can ask for a job, health, money, a spouse, etc., and these might not be granted. That doesn't mean God is not listening or responding.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 17:27
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:from pp who asked for the citation. I did see the whole thing and don't think it made your point.
Also, it sounds like you are saying that a person who prays frequently is more likely to get their prayers answered than a person who only prays occasionally, when they really want something. It still sounds like trying to get in good with god so he'll give you more stuff, which makes god sound more human than godly, and not a very nice human, at that.
Well, the Bible was written by humans, so it's not so strange that it would reflect some selfish human thinking.
Much in the Bible cannot be taken literally. Luke Chapter 11 is one such passage. If one could take it literally, all my health problems and my child's special needs would be gone. Nothing in the Bible says that you can wear God down. In fact, you cannot even change God's mind because God is immutable in time. Since the dawn of time He already knew everything that was going to happen because He all knowing. To God, time is one eternal present.
How do you know that? Did you learn it somewhere? If so, what is your source of information and how do you know it's reliable?
Anonymous
04/05/2017 14:37
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:from pp who asked for the citation. I did see the whole thing and don't think it made your point.
Also, it sounds like you are saying that a person who prays frequently is more likely to get their prayers answered than a person who only prays occasionally, when they really want something. It still sounds like trying to get in good with god so he'll give you more stuff, which makes god sound more human than godly, and not a very nice human, at that.
Well, the Bible was written by humans, so it's not so strange that it would reflect some selfish human thinking.
Much in the Bible cannot be taken literally. Luke Chapter 11 is one such passage. If one could take it literally, all my health problems and my child's special needs would be gone. Nothing in the Bible says that you can wear God down. In fact, you cannot even change God's mind because God is immutable in time. Since the dawn of time He already knew everything that was going to happen because He all knowing. To God, time is one eternal present.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 11:36
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
from pp who asked for the citation. I did see the whole thing and don't think it made your point.
Also, it sounds like you are saying that a person who prays frequently is more likely to get their prayers answered than a person who only prays occasionally, when they really want something. It still sounds like trying to get in good with god so he'll give you more stuff, which makes god sound more human than godly, and not a very nice human, at that.
Well, the Bible was written by humans, so it's not so strange that it would reflect some selfish human thinking.
Also, it sounds like you are saying that a person who prays frequently is more likely to get their prayers answered than a person who only prays occasionally, when they really want something. It still sounds like trying to get in good with god so he'll give you more stuff, which makes god sound more human than godly, and not a very nice human, at that.
Well, the Bible was written by humans, so it's not so strange that it would reflect some selfish human thinking.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 10:43
Subject: I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Prayer is the act of speaking with God on the deepest level. Sometimes God answers "yes" sometimes "no" and sometimes "wait". In the bible Jesus says that sometimes persistent prayer wears God down into saying yes. Just like a parent and child. Mostly the answer that occurs is for our own good in the end as God sees the future and the decisions take our eternal life into account.
Where in the Bible does it say this?
Luke 11:5-13. You can look it up.
Maybe you didn't actually quote it because you knew you'd get shot down, as the poster above did.
I'm the PP who cited Luke 11, but not the PP who wrote the original item about wearing God down. But I cited Luke 11 to show where it came from. The other PP who shot me down didn't cite the relevant part of the text. Here is the whole passage:
And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’? I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
No, I don't think either of you looked it up. But I also don't think the PP who brought this up has characterized this passage properly; I just wanted to give the citation because someone asked where in the Bible the PP got that. But I'm not sure we can "wear God down" with our prayers, but we ARE told to pray unceasingly in Philippians 4. My understanding is the LORD looks at our heart, so a one-off casual prayer is probably not going to be met with the same response as fervent, repeated prayer about an issue. But ultimately, we are told in the Bible that the LORD works things out according to the counsel of His will. I don't know why He answer some prayers in some ways and others in other ways. But we are assured that if we are in Christ, the LORD hears us and responds. If we're not in Christ, we don't have that assurance. Maybe you don't like that, but that's what the Bible says.
Anonymous
04/05/2017 10:21
Subject: Re:I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:"God makes all things beautiful in his time". If we think that an outcome has to be positive for prayer to make sense then many times it might not. One has to believe and trust God fully. In their pain may be they will emerge stronger or others will be touched and if you follow them to the end they will be some sort of breakthrough. It's hard to think of it logically. It is a spiritual manifestation.
Does this mean that spirituality and logic are mutually exclusive?
Anonymous
04/05/2017 09:50
Subject: Re:I'm wondering what prayer does
Anonymous wrote:Prayer has value. Period.
Well, that answers that question.