Anonymous wrote:First fix all the schools. Like working AC and heat and peeling paint and opening windows. Make the conditions actually even across counties and states (the physical plant parts). Then pay all teachers more and thereby having more people go into the profession and be able to pick the best ones for the job. Money is needed to make it a respectable profession so you don't lose people to other sectors because the pay is abysmal. Yea there are great teachers now that have the calling but many don't go into k-12 because of conditions and low pay and limited growth. Oh and get rid of administrative bloat and give principals and teachers more autonomy and less testing!

Their pay is equal, if not more to many similar professions only they get better benefits from many other gov't employees and get two months off plus Thanksgiving, Winter Break and Spring Break. I am so tired of hearing they are underpaid when they have a much cushier job than social workers, public health and more.

Our teacher was complaining this year about how small her classroom was. I thought it was huge and surprised by the comment.

If we're to give merit pay to teachers, it should be given to those who work in innercities and the conditions described by the pp. Perhaps the extra pay will attract teachers to those areas.

It's easy to be "highly effective" and have great test scores when the students and working conditions themselves are "highly effective".

It's unfair to those who teach those furthest behind and from the worst home lives to be penalized financially for it.

Absolutely. Been in both arenas and totally agree. Used to say that teachers in the inner cities deserve "combat pay". It's very sad, but you do spend a lot of time refereeing fights between and among kids. It's hard to make a lot of progress under those circumstances.

I think this thread shows just how hard it is to evaluate teachers properly. But OP's idea that colleagues and parents should evaluate teachers is ridiculous--is that who evaluates YOU, OP? Try to imagine a similar scenario in your workplace.

^^^^^

a busybody mean girl who unjustifiably toots her own horn and feels the only way to shine brightly is by distinguishing someone else's light.

--forgot to add that part

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

It just won't work. Too many variables. First, you must identify what makes a good teacher--and, that is a very difficult task. FWIW, test scores are not necessarily an indicator. Believe me, I worked much harder in a Title I school than in a more diverse situation--and, the results were much different.

So, what if you do identify the best teacher?--and, frequently, that would be the one who is best buds with the principal--or the one that the parents request because their next door neighbors thought she was great. What happens, then? Who gets the "best" teacher?

Too much politics involved.

Do you know what I wish? I wish that principals would make the effort to get rid of sorry teachers. That always bothered me more than not getting paid enough. You know, the teachers who do not pay attention--the ones who do the absolute minimum-or are just not cut out for the classroom. This could be done right now--but no one wants to do it.

Who are all of these sorry teachers? And how do you know they suck?

I've taught successfully for DECADES. (Successfully meaning I've always been highly regarded by admin and parents, had great student outcomes etc. I can count the number of crazy parents who've targeted me on one hand--with a few fingers left over. That's with over 20 years of experience. Their pursuits were very short lived because an end was put to their foolishness QUICKLY.)

I knew my job, my subject and my students. What I DIDN'T know were who the sorry teachers were.

You wanna know why? I was too busy in my classroom doing my own thing to know what was going on in anyone else's classroom.

So while I didn't know who the "sorry" teachers were, I knew who the busybody teachers were. The insecure, catty ones who had to feel as though they were better than all other teachers. The ones who thought they knew everything and tooted their own horns loudly (and without justification) while I worked quietly to affect student outcomes.

So maybe you should focus on making sure YOU are doing the best job in YOUR classroom. Leave determining who's sorry and who's not to the admin.

Just because they're not a part of your clique doesn't mean their sorry. Neither does the fact that they don't each lunch with you and the other mean girls.

I taught as well.

Who are the "sorry" teachers?
How about the one asleep at her desk when you walk by bringing your kids in after lunch? While her kids are in the room. Every day.

How about the one who comes in late many days --at least once a week--which means you have to supervise two classes--your own and hers. This is likely the same one who asks you to watch her kids because she has to leave early.

How about the one who ditches team meetings every time? The one who does not pitch in to help with grade level requirements placed on teachers.

How about the one who you know is cheating when she gives her class tests--why do you know? You teach those kids the next year and see that they have not achieved what she claims. Her kids test scores are higher than the kids from other classes--but the test scores don't match performance.

How about the one who--when you go in to deliver a message while your kids are at a special--the teacher is sitting at her desk filing her nails, while her kids are sitting at their desks with their hands folded waiting for the bell to ring--twenty minutes before school is out?

These examples are not all the same teacher--they are examples of teachers I worked with over several years. I worked through the years with outstanding teachers--but, I also saw some who had no business being in the classroom. This does not include the teacher who was sent on probation from another school for poor performance. She was on my team and had no business in the classroom. It was a terrible year for her students--many were removed from her class at parents' request. She was a very nice woman--but highly nervous. She had absolutely no classroom control. Yes, the principal was in and out of her classroom--but it was very sad for those kids. And, for those of us and our students who had to absorb the overflow.

Ma'am, I call BS on all of this.

In over 20 years of teaching--different grade levels, states...I have NEVER seen the nonsense you're talking about even ONCE, much less over and over from a variety of teachers.

Of all the teacher ancedotes given on sites like dcurban, there's never been one claiming to see the things you have-much less multiple times.

What type of luck do you have that YOU just happen to be the one who goes into these classrooms to catch teachers sleeping and doing their nails?

Furthermore, coming in late does not make one a bad teacher. Tardy? Yes. Unprofessional? Sure. But that doesn't mean they're not dynamic in the classroom. Means they hit traffic or oversleep. Could also mean that they have a valid reason for being late that the principal--not YOU--is aware of and sanctioned. One of my colleagues was able to come in late weekly after chemo. Another had childcare issues that one day a week. The principal knew and gave permission in both cases.

Ditching team meetings could very well also be pre-excused by an administrator who knows of extenuating circumstances. One of my colleagues happened to need to pump during that time. Another was excused from after school meetings for--well...whatever reason...She never told me--only that it was approved by admin. Or maybe those meetings turn into unproductive bitch sessions against admin, parents, everybody.

Not pitching in as you think they should? Again, doesn't mean they're not great in the classroom. Just not team players. Or very professional. OR....perhaps they're not pitching in to YOUR judgmental, bad luck having (cause you just happen to always get stuck with loser teachers) standards.

How do test scores not match performance? Are we talking about standardized tests? Those can't be cheated on. The times my students took the test I wasn't even in the room. And I definitely didn't score the tests. The state did. Teachers were not allowed to proctor their own students throughout most of my career.

Ever heard of summer learning loss? It's possible students DID make the gains she claimed but walked into your "perfect" class at a learning loss. Again, what bad luck that every single one of your students happened to have that same horrible, test-cheating, lying teacher. Whatever did you do wrong in your past life to deserve this? The bad teachers require YOU to cover their classes. Their students come to YOU. ALL of them. They're sleeping and doing their nails when YOU innocently walk into the room. And you just happen to be on the team where the teachers ditch meetings and won't pitch in.

Poor thing.

Again, I do NOT believe your story. But I DO believe that entire fairytale was your attempt at portraying other teachers as bad without acknowledging you're one of the busybody mean girls.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First fix all the schools. Like working AC and heat and peeling paint and opening windows. Make the conditions actually even across counties and states (the physical plant parts). Then pay all teachers more and thereby having more people go into the profession and be able to pick the best ones for the job. Money is needed to make it a respectable profession so you don't lose people to other sectors because the pay is abysmal. Yea there are great teachers now that have the calling but many don't go into k-12 because of conditions and low pay and limited growth. Oh and get rid of administrative bloat and give principals and teachers more autonomy and less testing!

who will pay for this? I agree with what you are saying, but people want lower taxes. Not higher taxes.

If we're to give merit pay to teachers, it should be given to those who work in innercities and the conditions described by the pp. Perhaps the extra pay will attract teachers to those areas.

It's easy to be "highly effective" and have great test scores when the students and working conditions themselves are "highly effective".

It's unfair to those who teach those furthest behind and from the worst home lives to be penalized financially for it.

Anonymous wrote:First fix all the schools. Like working AC and heat and peeling paint and opening windows. Make the conditions actually even across counties and states (the physical plant parts). Then pay all teachers more and thereby having more people go into the profession and be able to pick the best ones for the job. Money is needed to make it a respectable profession so you don't lose people to other sectors because the pay is abysmal. Yea there are great teachers now that have the calling but many don't go into k-12 because of conditions and low pay and limited growth. Oh and get rid of administrative bloat and give principals and teachers more autonomy and less testing!

who will pay for this? I agree with what you are saying, but people want lower taxes. Not higher taxes.

First fix all the schools. Like working AC and heat and peeling paint and opening windows. Make the conditions actually even across counties and states (the physical plant parts). Then pay all teachers more and thereby having more people go into the profession and be able to pick the best ones for the job. Money is needed to make it a respectable profession so you don't lose people to other sectors because the pay is abysmal. Yea there are great teachers now that have the calling but many don't go into k-12 because of conditions and low pay and limited growth. Oh and get rid of administrative bloat and give principals and teachers more autonomy and less testing!

I taught for 2 years -- ES, 3rd grade. I gave up not because of the kids, but some parents. I am male, and this was 30 years ago. Make ES teachers were unusual.

I had a parent demand that the school have someone in the class to supervise me to make sure I did not do anything inappropriate. The principal refused, and instead transferred the kid to a different class.

(I was very popular with the children, I would always make them laugh while teaching them, and my kids learned the materials.)

What finally got me, though, was in my second year, in the fall, I got sick. Right around the time of the fall conferences. I had the full blown flu, 103.5 temps, etc. I missed 1 week of work. I had to cancel the conferences and reschedule them. I wanted to do it before or after school over two weeks, but there was enough blow back that I had to take a day off for the conferences.

Except I had to pay for the sub. I was making 20K / year at the time, the sub cost about 60/day. Oh, and I used sick days when sick. I could not figure out how I was going to make my rent....and one parent demanded that I do the conference on a third day -- middle of the day -- luckily, my principal covered my class for that moment.

In the middle of all of this, the same parent stopped me after school (as I was leaving), started berating me for my salary on taxpayer dime, and told me she was gong to complain to the school board because I was out of the class room for conferences. I got angry -- my mistake -- and say, do you really have any idea how little I make? And told her. She proceeded to tell me that is because I am not doing anything productive with my life. WTF? I am teaching her kid.


I got home that night I went home, and filled out grad school applications (I had taken the GRE's in college and did very well). Ended up earning a PhD from a top school. Went on to have a financially rewarding career.

I now know where the crazy parent went. Did not think they would still be fertile. Must be their offspring.

(oh, and I am winding down my career, and preparing to return to the class room).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

It just won't work. Too many variables. First, you must identify what makes a good teacher--and, that is a very difficult task. FWIW, test scores are not necessarily an indicator. Believe me, I worked much harder in a Title I school than in a more diverse situation--and, the results were much different.

So, what if you do identify the best teacher?--and, frequently, that would be the one who is best buds with the principal--or the one that the parents request because their next door neighbors thought she was great. What happens, then? Who gets the "best" teacher?

Too much politics involved.

Do you know what I wish? I wish that principals would make the effort to get rid of sorry teachers. That always bothered me more than not getting paid enough. You know, the teachers who do not pay attention--the ones who do the absolute minimum-or are just not cut out for the classroom. This could be done right now--but no one wants to do it.

Who are all of these sorry teachers? And how do you know they suck?

I've taught successfully for DECADES. (Successfully meaning I've always been highly regarded by admin and parents, had great student outcomes etc. I can count the number of crazy parents who've targeted me on one hand--with a few fingers left over. That's with over 20 years of experience. Their pursuits were very short lived because an end was put to their foolishness QUICKLY.)

I knew my job, my subject and my students. What I DIDN'T know were who the sorry teachers were.

You wanna know why? I was too busy in my classroom doing my own thing to know what was going on in anyone else's classroom.

So while I didn't know who the "sorry" teachers were, I knew who the busybody teachers were. The insecure, catty ones who had to feel as though they were better than all other teachers. The ones who thought they knew everything and tooted their own horns loudly (and without justification) while I worked quietly to affect student outcomes.

So maybe you should focus on making sure YOU are doing the best job in YOUR classroom. Leave determining who's sorry and who's not to the admin.

Just because they're not a part of your clique doesn't mean their sorry. Neither does the fact that they don't each lunch with you and the other mean girls.

I taught as well.

Who are the "sorry" teachers?
How about the one asleep at her desk when you walk by bringing your kids in after lunch? While her kids are in the room. Every day.

How about the one who comes in late many days --at least once a week--which means you have to supervise two classes--your own and hers. This is likely the same one who asks you to watch her kids because she has to leave early.

How about the one who ditches team meetings every time? The one who does not pitch in to help with grade level requirements placed on teachers.

How about the one who you know is cheating when she gives her class tests--why do you know? You teach those kids the next year and see that they have not achieved what she claims. Her kids test scores are higher than the kids from other classes--but the test scores don't match performance.

How about the one who--when you go in to deliver a message while your kids are at a special--the teacher is sitting at her desk filing her nails, while her kids are sitting at their desks with their hands folded waiting for the bell to ring--twenty minutes before school is out?

These examples are not all the same teacher--they are examples of teachers I worked with over several years. I worked through the years with outstanding teachers--but, I also saw some who had no business being in the classroom. This does not include the teacher who was sent on probation from another school for poor performance. She was on my team and had no business in the classroom. It was a terrible year for her students--many were removed from her class at parents' request. She was a very nice woman--but highly nervous. She had absolutely no classroom control. Yes, the principal was in and out of her classroom--but it was very sad for those kids. And, for those of us and our students who had to absorb the overflow.

At the very least they need to give team leads a stipend. It's insane the "honor" involves more work without compensation.

Anonymous wrote:

Should we financially reward a teacher who skips out on her parent/teacher conferences?

Do you mean a parent who skips the scheduled conference--or one who is not available at your beck and call? Or, do you mean one who calls it to a close when the appropriate time has passed?

If a teacher skips a scheduled conference, I would think there might be a very good reason. If this happens more than once, then it should be reported to the administrator for action.

No, we had to reschedule it and she proved choose the new date and time and the day before said she didn't feel we needed it and canceled it.

Anonymous wrote:OP,

It just won't work. Too many variables. First, you must identify what makes a good teacher--and, that is a very difficult task. FWIW, test scores are not necessarily an indicator. Believe me, I worked much harder in a Title I school than in a more diverse situation--and, the results were much different.

So, what if you do identify the best teacher?--and, frequently, that would be the one who is best buds with the principal--or the one that the parents request because their next door neighbors thought she was great. What happens, then? Who gets the "best" teacher?

Too much politics involved.

Do you know what I wish? I wish that principals would make the effort to get rid of sorry teachers. That always bothered me more than not getting paid enough. You know, the teachers who do not pay attention--the ones who do the absolute minimum-or are just not cut out for the classroom. This could be done right now--but no one wants to do it.

Who are all of these sorry teachers? And how do you know they suck?

I've taught successfully for DECADES. (Successfully meaning I've always been highly regarded by admin and parents, had great student outcomes etc. I can count the number of crazy parents who've targeted me on one hand--with a few fingers left over. That's with over 20 years of experience. Their pursuits were very short lived because an end was put to their foolishness QUICKLY.)

I knew my job, my subject and my students. What I DIDN'T know were who the sorry teachers were.

You wanna know why? I was too busy in my classroom doing my own thing to know what was going on in anyone else's classroom.

So while I didn't know who the "sorry" teachers were, I knew who the busybody teachers were. The insecure, catty ones who had to feel as though they were better than all other teachers. The ones who thought they knew everything and tooted their own horns loudly (and without justification) while I worked quietly to affect student outcomes.

So maybe you should focus on making sure YOU are doing the best job in YOUR classroom. Leave determining who's sorry and who's not to the admin.

Just because they're not a part of your clique doesn't mean their sorry. Neither does the fact that they don't each lunch with you and the other mean girls.

To the person who posted about working conditions, have you ever visited a public school in a city? I work at one and I think you'd be shocked at the working conditions there. Heating that is often broken, rats and mice as well as all types of insects, faulty plumbing. We have to bring in bottled water since we can't drink out of the water fountains. Cars in the parking lot as sometimes broken into and the cleaning staff does more stealing than cleaning. If you don't like what is being taught, that is a curriculum issue. We have very little control over that. If you are concerned about the lack of communication with teachers, complain to the admin. We spend HOURS and HOURS of our planning time inputting data for each assessment we give. If we hired someone to do this, it would amount to a PT job for each grade level. I spent 3 hrs after school on Thursday inputting data from a test. The system was down (typical) and we had to have it in before winter break. After break, we will spend half a day crunching this data. That half day will be covered by subs. We do this many times per year. It is also not our choice. Please make your complaints clear to the people who are in power to do something about them. Teachers are merely pawns.

Should we financially reward a teacher who skips out on her parent/teacher conferences?

Do you mean a parent who skips the scheduled conference--or one who is not available at your beck and call? Or, do you mean one who calls it to a close when the appropriate time has passed?

If a teacher skips a scheduled conference, I would think there might be a very good reason. If this happens more than once, then it should be reported to the administrator for action.