Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:36     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I'm not with you on immigration:
1. Immigrants work at jobs most Americans don't want to do.
2. The immense majority are hard-working and grateful to be here.
3. We also have to do our share on the international stage - many small countries have taken in many more immigrants.

I'm not trying to change your mind, OP. But this is the way I see it. All I hope is that you won't vote for Trump, who is by any measure a disgusting windbag.


I agree with your points about immigrants. I agree they are hard-working. My anti-immigration stance would hurt them, and I do feel bad about that.

But I still think it damages our country and it is is short-sighted, because we are left with this permanent underclass that is going nowhere.


Again I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise, but what I have witnessed (and what the data shows, BTW) is the opposite - immigrants are much more upwardly mobile, economically speaking, than low-income Americans burdened with generations of poverty. It's easy to understand: immigrants come here with the dream of a better life, and they sacrifice their earnings to educate their children so that the second generation is lifted out of poverty. The 2nd or 3rd generation is generally upper-middle class (lawyers, doctors, etc). Their drive and motivation makes the difference.
Poor communities of white or black Americans, whether in inner cities or Appalachia, sometimes lack that essential drive because they have not experienced any other life elsewhere and their families have been ground into apathy for years. It's not their fault either. That is the underclass that has existed in America for decades and I agree with you that we should give them more opportunities.



Maybe you're right. But I feel like politicians have completely given up on those communities. Is it really better that they become completely dependent on welfare? Maybe if we did not have cheap labor via illegal immigrants, businesses would be forced to actually offer a living wage to American citizens.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:26     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I'm not with you on immigration:
1. Immigrants work at jobs most Americans don't want to do.
2. The immense majority are hard-working and grateful to be here.
3. We also have to do our share on the international stage - many small countries have taken in many more immigrants.

I'm not trying to change your mind, OP. But this is the way I see it. All I hope is that you won't vote for Trump, who is by any measure a disgusting windbag.


I agree with your points about immigrants. I agree they are hard-working. My anti-immigration stance would hurt them, and I do feel bad about that.

But I still think it damages our country and it is is short-sighted, because we are left with this permanent underclass that is going nowhere.


Again I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise, but what I have witnessed (and what the data shows, BTW) is the opposite - immigrants are much more upwardly mobile, economically speaking, than low-income Americans burdened with generations of poverty. It's easy to understand: immigrants come here with the dream of a better life, and they sacrifice their earnings to educate their children so that the second generation is lifted out of poverty. The 2nd or 3rd generation is generally upper-middle class (lawyers, doctors, etc). Their drive and motivation makes the difference.
Poor communities of white or black Americans, whether in inner cities or Appalachia, sometimes lack that essential drive because they have not experienced any other life elsewhere and their families have been ground into apathy for years. It's not their fault either. That is the underclass that has existed in America for decades and I agree with you that we should give them more opportunities.

Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:25     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Yes, I am a unicorn.

Lifelong Dem. Big Obama supporter. Never liked HRC and voted against her in 08.

Can't stand the Donald. Hate his style, character, lack of self-control etc.

But I am 100 percent with him on illegal immigration. I have almost become a single issue voter.

No one IRL knows I feel this way.

Not sure I could actually vote for him when it comes down to it, but if I did, I would be voting for this one issue. I feel like voting for HRC is a vote for a borderless America.



I really don't comprehend people who say they are undecided. I am about as far left as you can get, and I would vote for Antonin Scalia over a Democrat who was as ignorant and arrogant as Donald Trump. Saying you are with him on any issue is nonsense because he does not have any coherent position on any issue.

He's exactly like the loud drunk, aggressive parent at the youth sports game who doesn't even know the rules of the game but is sure that he could do a better job than the refs and the coaches. At the debate, he scoffed at the military leadership and asked "why do we announce in advance that we are going to attack?" (an an answer to a question about Syria as he was discussing a city in Iraq). Does he honestly think US generals JUST NEVER THOUGHT OF A SURPRISE ATTACK? Like that's some new idea that he discovered? His contempt for our armed forces is mind boggling. Likewise with his announcement early on that he would kill and torture the families of Jihadists. He then had to walk that back because people who actually know stuff informed him that our soldiers won't commit war crimes just because he says so.

On immigration, you do know that:

1. More Mexicans (who are 52% if undocumented immigrants) are leaving the US than entering, right and have been for a couple of years now? So a wall would actually increase the number of undocumented immigrants?
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/

2. Economist have repeatedly concluded that undocumented immigrants pay more in taxes (sales, payroll, etc.) than they use in services, resulting in a net plus to the US government? The U.S. Social Security Administration estimated that in 2013 undocumented immigrants—and their employers—paid $13 billion in payroll taxes alone for benefits they will never get. Immigrants can receive schooling and emergency medical care, but they cannot get welfare or food stamps.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/


Sorry, but if you are a single issue Trump voter on immigration, then you are an idiot.




So, OP. no comment when presented with actual facts?


I think I've answered those concerns, but not directly. I do not support a wall. It's ridiculous. I do not support deportation.

I am sure that immigrants contribute to the society. But a) it sickens me that the US taxpayer subsidizes big business use of cheap labor (we pay for the social services when big business won't offer benefits). Your point about not getting benefits is not true.

For instance, in California, CAPI -- a state-funded program -- pays cash benefits to immigrants who don't qualify for food stamps.

and b) I think illegal and low-skilled immigrants depress the labor market for low-skilled American workers, making it harder for them to join the middle class.

I forgive your for calling me names.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:19     Subject: I am still undecided
Vote on the platform and issues.

Both candidates are flawed. The candidates almost don't matter. They will surround themselves with people to try to implement their policies.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:18     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
I'm not with you on immigration:
1. Immigrants work at jobs most Americans don't want to do.
2. The immense majority are hard-working and grateful to be here.
3. We also have to do our share on the international stage - many small countries have taken in many more immigrants.

I'm not trying to change your mind, OP. But this is the way I see it. All I hope is that you won't vote for Trump, who is by any measure a disgusting windbag.


I agree with your points about immigrants. I agree they are hard-working. My anti-immigration stance would hurt them, and I do feel bad about that.

But I still think it damages our country and it is is short-sighted, because we are left with this permanent underclass that is going nowhere.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:17     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Yes, I am a unicorn.

Lifelong Dem. Big Obama supporter. Never liked HRC and voted against her in 08.

Can't stand the Donald. Hate his style, character, lack of self-control etc.

But I am 100 percent with him on illegal immigration. I have almost become a single issue voter.

No one IRL knows I feel this way.

Not sure I could actually vote for him when it comes down to it, but if I did, I would be voting for this one issue. I feel like voting for HRC is a vote for a borderless America.



I really don't comprehend people who say they are undecided. I am about as far left as you can get, and I would vote for Antonin Scalia over a Democrat who was as ignorant and arrogant as Donald Trump. Saying you are with him on any issue is nonsense because he does not have any coherent position on any issue.

He's exactly like the loud drunk, aggressive parent at the youth sports game who doesn't even know the rules of the game but is sure that he could do a better job than the refs and the coaches. At the debate, he scoffed at the military leadership and asked "why do we announce in advance that we are going to attack?" (an an answer to a question about Syria as he was discussing a city in Iraq). Does he honestly think US generals JUST NEVER THOUGHT OF A SURPRISE ATTACK? Like that's some new idea that he discovered? His contempt for our armed forces is mind boggling. Likewise with his announcement early on that he would kill and torture the families of Jihadists. He then had to walk that back because people who actually know stuff informed him that our soldiers won't commit war crimes just because he says so.

On immigration, you do know that:

1. More Mexicans (who are 52% if undocumented immigrants) are leaving the US than entering, right and have been for a couple of years now? So a wall would actually increase the number of undocumented immigrants?
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/

2. Economist have repeatedly concluded that undocumented immigrants pay more in taxes (sales, payroll, etc.) than they use in services, resulting in a net plus to the US government? The U.S. Social Security Administration estimated that in 2013 undocumented immigrants—and their employers—paid $13 billion in payroll taxes alone for benefits they will never get. Immigrants can receive schooling and emergency medical care, but they cannot get welfare or food stamps.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/


Sorry, but if you are a single issue Trump voter on immigration, then you are an idiot.




So, OP. no comment when presented with actual facts?
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:09     Subject: I am still undecided

I'm not with you on immigration:
1. Immigrants work at jobs most Americans don't want to do.
2. The immense majority are hard-working and grateful to be here.
3. We also have to do our share on the international stage - many small countries have taken in many more immigrants.

I'm not trying to change your mind, OP. But this is the way I see it. All I hope is that you won't vote for Trump, who is by any measure a disgusting windbag.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:07     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP: here's a cookie. Now slink back to irrelevancy.


OP here: the above is exhibit one in the breakdown of public discourse.

PP -- Why are you so uncivil? I was trying to have an adult conversation. There is nothing even vaguely inflammatory or offensive about what I wrote, but you are just plain nasty.

For all you know, I am one of your good friends who would never let on in public that I feel this way.


I'm with you! I think they're both horrible people.

Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 19:01     Subject: I am still undecided
It's not possible to be undecided at this point. Just afraid of committing to a decision
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 18:34     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why are you a single issue voter on THIS issue, OP? What policy would YOU see us enact on immigration? Do you really think builiding a wall on the entire border with Mexico is actually possible? Do you honestly think we can force Mexico to pay for it? Do you really think a "deportation force" to remove 12 million people is realistic? How would you pay for it?

And lastly, do you not see how single issue voting is a massive abdication of civic responsibility in a complex world where we have many issues and challenges to solve?


I don't think we should build a wall.

I don't believe in deporting millions of people.

But I think a country needs to enforce the laws on the books, and if we as a society don't like them, we should change them, not ignore/flaunt them. I also think illegal/unskilled workers are hurting our own unskilled labor force in both rural areas and the inner cities.

I DO see how single issue voting is an abdication, so that is why I am not rah-rah Trump. I find him abhorrent. But I feel our leaders have completely turned their backs on us re: this issue. Dems, b/c they want the votes, and Reps b/c they want cheap labor.


I've got good news for you. Changing or immigration laws to make them workable and more effective at securing our borders is called immigration reform, and it's something that both HRC and many moderate Republicans believe strongly in.


Maybe change was too neutral a word. I doubt HRC would change them the way I think they ought to be changed.


Oh, so it's a tantrum vote.


I don't know what this means. I suppose all votes could be described this way by opponents. I assure you this is the furthest thing from a tantrum. I am heartsick over the condition of our cities and towns that have been hollowed out by the loss of industry, and have become mired in dependency on the govt. I think stopping all unskilled immigration is essential to turning our country around.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 18:23     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why are you a single issue voter on THIS issue, OP? What policy would YOU see us enact on immigration? Do you really think builiding a wall on the entire border with Mexico is actually possible? Do you honestly think we can force Mexico to pay for it? Do you really think a "deportation force" to remove 12 million people is realistic? How would you pay for it?

And lastly, do you not see how single issue voting is a massive abdication of civic responsibility in a complex world where we have many issues and challenges to solve?


I don't think we should build a wall.

I don't believe in deporting millions of people.

But I think a country needs to enforce the laws on the books, and if we as a society don't like them, we should change them, not ignore/flaunt them. I also think illegal/unskilled workers are hurting our own unskilled labor force in both rural areas and the inner cities.

I DO see how single issue voting is an abdication, so that is why I am not rah-rah Trump. I find him abhorrent. But I feel our leaders have completely turned their backs on us re: this issue. Dems, b/c they want the votes, and Reps b/c they want cheap labor.


I've got good news for you. Changing or immigration laws to make them workable and more effective at securing our borders is called immigration reform, and it's something that both HRC and many moderate Republicans believe strongly in.


Maybe change was too neutral a word. I doubt HRC would change them the way I think they ought to be changed.


Oh, so it's a tantrum vote.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 18:22     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why are you a single issue voter on THIS issue, OP? What policy would YOU see us enact on immigration? Do you really think builiding a wall on the entire border with Mexico is actually possible? Do you honestly think we can force Mexico to pay for it? Do you really think a "deportation force" to remove 12 million people is realistic? How would you pay for it?

And lastly, do you not see how single issue voting is a massive abdication of civic responsibility in a complex world where we have many issues and challenges to solve?


I don't think we should build a wall.

I don't believe in deporting millions of people.

But I think a country needs to enforce the laws on the books, and if we as a society don't like them, we should change them, not ignore/flaunt them. I also think illegal/unskilled workers are hurting our own unskilled labor force in both rural areas and the inner cities.

I DO see how single issue voting is an abdication, so that is why I am not rah-rah Trump. I find him abhorrent. But I feel our leaders have completely turned their backs on us re: this issue. Dems, b/c they want the votes, and Reps b/c they want cheap labor.



I've got good news for you. Changing or immigration laws to make them workable and more effective at securing our borders is called immigration reform, and it's something that both HRC and many moderate Republicans believe strongly in.


Maybe change was too neutral a word. I doubt HRC would change them the way I think they ought to be changed.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 18:16     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why are you a single issue voter on THIS issue, OP? What policy would YOU see us enact on immigration? Do you really think builiding a wall on the entire border with Mexico is actually possible? Do you honestly think we can force Mexico to pay for it? Do you really think a "deportation force" to remove 12 million people is realistic? How would you pay for it?

And lastly, do you not see how single issue voting is a massive abdication of civic responsibility in a complex world where we have many issues and challenges to solve?


I don't think we should build a wall.

I don't believe in deporting millions of people.

But I think a country needs to enforce the laws on the books, and if we as a society don't like them, we should change them, not ignore/flaunt them. I also think illegal/unskilled workers are hurting our own unskilled labor force in both rural areas and the inner cities.

I DO see how single issue voting is an abdication, so that is why I am not rah-rah Trump. I find him abhorrent. But I feel our leaders have completely turned their backs on us re: this issue. Dems, b/c they want the votes, and Reps b/c they want cheap labor.



I've got good news for you. Changing or immigration laws to make them workable and more effective at securing our borders is called immigration reform, and it's something that both HRC and many moderate Republicans believe strongly in.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 18:15     Subject: I am still undecided
takoma wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Yes, I am a unicorn.

Lifelong Dem. Big Obama supporter. Never liked HRC and voted against her in 08.

Can't stand the Donald. Hate his style, character, lack of self-control etc.

But I am 100 percent with him on illegal immigration. I have almost become a single issue voter.

No one IRL knows I feel this way.

Not sure I could actually vote for him when it comes down to it, but if I did, I would be voting for this one issue. I feel like voting for HRC is a vote for a borderless America.



"My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, sometime in the future with energy that's as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere," Clinton reportedly said to investors in a paid speech she gave to Brazilian Banco Itau in 2013.

That's who she really is.

Yep, she's someone with dreams, who is realistic enough to realize that they won't happen tomorrow.


She is no idealist. She is a calculating liar. Is it a coincidence that she made the open boarder remark to Brazilians?
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2016 18:13     Subject: I am still undecided
Anonymous wrote:OP here. I am in MD, so it is a moot point. And in some way that makes me feel better, b/c my vote really does not matter.

I was such an Obama supporter and one of the reasons I really liked him was because he was NOT HRC.

It may be hard for some to imagine that I would even consider Trump, but I don't really focus on what an a-hole he is, I just focus on the issues, actually one issue.

I agree with the PP that we have been abandoned by both the Dem and Rep parties.


Why do people keep saying this. The bolder statement is false. Maryland has gone red in statewide elections.