Anonymous
06/22/2016 14:28
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
You can't define classes strictly by income. It makes no sense, when people are going to draw conclusions about lifestyle from it.
What if I have zero income but $10 million under my mattress? I am in poverty? No...
What if I have $100k income and zero debt? I am at the top of middle class? Ok...
But what if, in order to get my $100k income, I had to go into debt $200k for my education, and I have a drag of -$3000 every month for the next 20 years. I am the same as the guy above making $100k? No...
Same thing, but I have to live in a HCOL area and spend extra money on childcare to have both spouses work all day? Not the same as someone in LCOL area.
It should really be based off of a household's free cash flow. How much discretionary money you can spend every year after essentials are paid for (typical housing in your area, typical food budget, childcare necessary to earn income, vehicles necessary for income, student loan debt necessary for income, taxes). It is very possible for a family in D.C. making $400k to have the same discretionary spending power as a family making $100-200k in different circumstances when both families are equally thrifty.
What if I have zero income but $10 million under my mattress? I am in poverty? No...
What if I have $100k income and zero debt? I am at the top of middle class? Ok...
But what if, in order to get my $100k income, I had to go into debt $200k for my education, and I have a drag of -$3000 every month for the next 20 years. I am the same as the guy above making $100k? No...
Same thing, but I have to live in a HCOL area and spend extra money on childcare to have both spouses work all day? Not the same as someone in LCOL area.
It should really be based off of a household's free cash flow. How much discretionary money you can spend every year after essentials are paid for (typical housing in your area, typical food budget, childcare necessary to earn income, vehicles necessary for income, student loan debt necessary for income, taxes). It is very possible for a family in D.C. making $400k to have the same discretionary spending power as a family making $100-200k in different circumstances when both families are equally thrifty.
Anonymous
06/22/2016 13:32
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
First of all, let me just say we don't make anywhere close to $400K. But I still think that on every single thread on this, there are some sour grapes who hate rich people and will cast everything they do as some sort of slight on poor people. Get over it. So you feel poor. I guarantee you most of the rich are not spending their days worrying about how to appear to you or how they will next make sure you know they are rich.
People are suggesting that $400K is upper-middle in this area because you need less than half that in a lower COL area like Charlotte or somewhere more rural to have the same standard of life as what that affords here. That is, a decent sized house (2500 sq in a good school district around NoVa will run you $800K these days) for your kids with a yard, good school, good childcare.
We just moved from the frigid far North and the schools there are great. The housing is much more reasonable. Fact is, if you make $200K in boondock nowhere, you'll be swimming in land and house and plenty of cheaper childcare options because both are super expensive here.
$400K gets you these things in the DC area and then a bit but you're not swimming in luxury and extra cash. You will pay out of your nose for housing and childcare and education, and you won't have much left over unless you buy in the crappy school districts and force your kids to go to a crowded public school with a bunch of ESOL students. Some people will do that. Many will not. That you don't make anywhere close to $400K is neither here nor there.
People are suggesting that $400K is upper-middle in this area because you need less than half that in a lower COL area like Charlotte or somewhere more rural to have the same standard of life as what that affords here. That is, a decent sized house (2500 sq in a good school district around NoVa will run you $800K these days) for your kids with a yard, good school, good childcare.
We just moved from the frigid far North and the schools there are great. The housing is much more reasonable. Fact is, if you make $200K in boondock nowhere, you'll be swimming in land and house and plenty of cheaper childcare options because both are super expensive here.
$400K gets you these things in the DC area and then a bit but you're not swimming in luxury and extra cash. You will pay out of your nose for housing and childcare and education, and you won't have much left over unless you buy in the crappy school districts and force your kids to go to a crowded public school with a bunch of ESOL students. Some people will do that. Many will not. That you don't make anywhere close to $400K is neither here nor there.
Anonymous
06/22/2016 13:30
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would suggest that the fact the range goes up to $350k would indicate there is already an allowance for COL.
Even if DC, someone making $400k doesn't get to call themselves upper middle class. Sorry.
I know we have had this arguments here a million times but 400k is not rich or wealthy in this area. It is UMC.
Yes. Some people are so disconnected from reality!
Not the pp, but very few people who actually make 400k share your sentiment. People who have personal experience of what it's like to make 400k are usually better judges of reality than those who do not.
Actually, I think that's exactly wrong. In my experience, nobody, regardless of their wealth, considers themselves truly wealthy. So someone with a different wealth may be a better judge. I make around $400 and its true, I don't feel like I am wealthy. But I have enough sense to recognize that objectively I am.
Nobody? You don't think Bill Gates consider himself wealthy? Warren Buffett? It's pretty obvious that quite a few people consider themselves truly wealthy whether or not your experience acknowledge this simple fact or not. Your experience is in rather poor shape and is therefore an unreliable basis for your arguments.
Anonymous
06/22/2016 11:18
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would suggest that the fact the range goes up to $350k would indicate there is already an allowance for COL.
Even if DC, someone making $400k doesn't get to call themselves upper middle class. Sorry.
I know we have had this arguments here a million times but 400k is not rich or wealthy in this area. It is UMC.
Yes. Some people are so disconnected from reality!
Not the pp, but very few people who actually make 400k share your sentiment. People who have personal experience of what it's like to make 400k are usually better judges of reality than those who do not.
Actually, I think that's exactly wrong. In my experience, nobody, regardless of their wealth, considers themselves truly wealthy. So someone with a different wealth may be a better judge. I make around $400 and its true, I don't feel like I am wealthy. But I have enough sense to recognize that objectively I am.
Anonymous
06/22/2016 11:16
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would suggest that the fact the range goes up to $350k would indicate there is already an allowance for COL.
Even if DC, someone making $400k doesn't get to call themselves upper middle class. Sorry.
+1
The range is $100k-350k. This includes DC and other high COL areas. Sorry OP, if you're above that, you're above upper middle class.
+1. By OP's logic, since I make $400,000 but am in DC, I haven't even made it to the upper middle class.
Anonymous
06/22/2016 10:58
Subject: Re:Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
So depressing. We're at exactly 350k HHI and now we're lower middle. I'll have to ride DH to work harder so we can get into the UMC. I hate being poorz..
Anonymous
06/22/2016 09:42
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:-UMC on less than $150K, no illusions here
LOL, that's cute, but don't flatter yourself.
This is the PP you responded to. How old are you, what is your education level and what are your politics?
Anonymous
06/22/2016 08:12
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
Anonymous wrote:The point of the article was not the boundaries. Those were used to define the breaks. It was the distribution.
The people earning 100-350K are booming in this economy: numbers are swelling (I assume they are adjusted for inflation).
The MC is disappearing: people are going either to the LMC/P or UMC.
Basically, if you get the right education, you end up in UMC.
I don't think you read the article. The poor and lower middle class population has been shrinking, not growing. So the decrease in population of the middle class is going to upper middle class, not to lower middle class. If anything, this is the sign of exceptional class mobility within the US.
However, I disagree with the statistics. I believe the cut-offs they chose are artificial and no longer reflect the reality of the middle class population.
Anonymous
06/22/2016 05:58
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
The point of the article was not the boundaries. Those were used to define the breaks. It was the distribution.
The people earning 100-350K are booming in this economy: numbers are swelling (I assume they are adjusted for inflation).
The MC is disappearing: people are going either to the LMC/P or UMC.
Basically, if you get the right education, you end up in UMC.
The people earning 100-350K are booming in this economy: numbers are swelling (I assume they are adjusted for inflation).
The MC is disappearing: people are going either to the LMC/P or UMC.
Basically, if you get the right education, you end up in UMC.
Anonymous
06/22/2016 05:47
Subject: Upper middle class (not adjusted for COL) ends at 350K HHI nationally, DC is 476K-525K
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
No, those making 400K who think they are middle class because they spent a huge boatload of money buying expensive homes in NW, Potomac, Bethesda, Great Falls, McLean, etc, are the ones out of touch with reality. Put another way, those with $400K have this fairy tale illusion of what they think middle class is. They are out of touch with the way the actual middle class actually lives. I'm sorry, but this isn't the days of the Wally and Beaver.
Lay of the math, it's not a panacea.
$400k net in some second tier, low tax state is a lot different from $400K gross from two incomes in a high cost of living area, paying off student debt and paying for childcare expenses.
No logic here. You are assuming that someone with 400K in a lower cost area doesn't have student debt and childcare expenses to pay off either. 400K is 400K no matter how you CHOOSE to spend it and where you CHOOSE to live. Your money buys you the luxury of living in a city with an economic bubble wrap around it and lots of amenities.
And the ability to pay for a great childcare and pay off your loans that someone making a quarter of that doesn't have.
Our HHI is 325K a year and I have NO illusions about where that puts me on the economic scale. Even in DC, I am doing extremely well.AnonymousAnonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would suggest that the fact the range goes up to $350k would indicate there is already an allowance for COL.
Even if DC, someone making $400k doesn't get to call themselves upper middle class. Sorry.
I know we have had this arguments here a million times but 400k is not rich or wealthy in this area. It is UMC.
Yes. Some people are so disconnected from reality!
Not the pp, but very few people who actually make 400k share your sentiment. People who have personal experience of what it's like to make 400k are usually better judges of reality than those who do not.
How is the top 0.75% the middle of anything? The middle class is typically around the middle 50 percent of the income curve. With median HHI's around $80-90K in the DC metro area, the 75th percentile is around $150K. So, you're saying that in a metro area of over 6M people, with over 1.5M households, that the top 20-30K people are still middle class? Does that mean that 1.4M households out of 1.5M in the Washington metro area are poor?
No, those making 400K who think they are middle class because they spent a huge boatload of money buying expensive homes in NW, Potomac, Bethesda, Great Falls, McLean, etc, are the ones out of touch with reality. Put another way, those with $400K have this fairy tale illusion of what they think middle class is. They are out of touch with the way the actual middle class actually lives. I'm sorry, but this isn't the days of the Wally and Beaver.
We are not talking about middle, but upper middle. So all your frantic typing above is meaningless.
Must be good drugs you get. Even if you want to classify middle class as the middle 50 percentile (say 25-75), then UMC would be somewhere in the 75-90 percentile. So that might raise it to the 150-250K range. $400K is the top 0.75% of the nation, and about the top 1% of the DC metro area. There is no way that 99% of the population is middle class or lower. Only those out of touch with reality would delude themselves into thinking that the top 1% of the population is not rich.
Lay of the math, it's not a panacea.
$400k net in some second tier, low tax state is a lot different from $400K gross from two incomes in a high cost of living area, paying off student debt and paying for childcare expenses.
AnonymousIn DC, this says $76,000/yr HHI for family of 4 is eligible to put the kids on medicaid
http://dhcf.dc.gov/service/presumptive-eligibility
30-50 MC. please.AnonymousAnonymous wrote:If you do a COLA for DC it would be 476K to 539K accoring to the COL adjustments below
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/21/news/economy/upper-middle-class/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom
http://www.areavibes.com/washington-dc/cost-of-living/
http://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_living/city/district_of_columbia/washington
30k a year HHI is below poverty in much of the US for a family. this chart is just not accurrate. Sorry. 30k cut off for middle class is painting a rosy picture that the lower middle class arent more like "poor" today.AnonymousAnonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Must be good drugs you get. Even if you want to classify middle class as the middle 50 percentile (say 25-75), then UMC would be somewhere in the 75-90 percentile. So that might raise it to the 150-250K range. $400K is the top 0.75% of the nation, and about the top 1% of the DC metro area. There is no way that 99% of the population is middle class or lower. Only those out of touch with reality would delude themselves into thinking that the top 1% of the population is not rich.Anonymous wrote:We are not talking about middle, but upper middle. So all your frantic typing above is meaningless.
Immediate PP, preach.
-UMC on less than $150K, no illusions here
LOL, that's cute, but don't flatter yourself.AnonymousAnonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would suggest that the fact the range goes up to $350k would indicate there is already an allowance for COL.
Even if DC, someone making $400k doesn't get to call themselves upper middle class. Sorry.
I know we have had this arguments here a million times but 400k is not rich or wealthy in this area. It is UMC.
Yes. Some people are so disconnected from reality!
Not the pp, but very few people who actually make 400k share your sentiment. People who have personal experience of what it's like to make 400k are usually better judges of reality than those who do not.
How is the top 0.75% the middle of anything? The middle class is typically around the middle 50 percent of the income curve. With median HHI's around $80-90K in the DC metro area, the 75th percentile is around $150K. So, you're saying that in a metro area of over 6M people, with over 1.5M households, that the top 20-30K people are still middle class? Does that mean that 1.4M households out of 1.5M in the Washington metro area are poor?
No, those making 400K who think they are middle class because they spent a huge boatload of money buying expensive homes in NW, Potomac, Bethesda, Great Falls, McLean, etc, are the ones out of touch with reality. Put another way, those with $400K have this fairy tale illusion of what they think middle class is. They are out of touch with the way the actual middle class actually lives. I'm sorry, but this isn't the days of the Wally and Beaver.
We are not talking about middle, but upper middle. So all your frantic typing above is meaningless.
Must be good drugs you get. Even if you want to classify middle class as the middle 50 percentile (say 25-75), then UMC would be somewhere in the 75-90 percentile. So that might raise it to the 150-250K range. $400K is the top 0.75% of the nation, and about the top 1% of the DC metro area. There is no way that 99% of the population is middle class or lower. Only those out of touch with reality would delude themselves into thinking that the top 1% of the population is not rich.
Not drugs, facts, which you seem to not have been able to grasp. Instead you seem to be content pulling figures out of your you-know-where. Where did you get the 75-90 percentile figure? What research can you site that uses these percentiles for defining upper middle class? Where did you get that $400k is the top 1% of the DC metro area? Again what research can you site that shows this data? So other than figures you've pulled out of your you-know-where, what actual analysis or data can you reference to backup your breathless ranting?