Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:58     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:This is a hate crime. Period end of story. Even if he was conflicted about his own sexuality, it does not factor into the determination.

Hate is hate, is hate, is hate, is hate, is hate.


No crime is a crime of love, for that matter.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:57     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.


This is just not true. I know of at least two friends - devout Muslims - big drinkers and partiers.
The imbibe secretly. Away from family.


True that. Our muslim friends drink around us, not their families though.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:56     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.


Perfectly stated. His understanding of Islam, limited as it appears to be, likely played a role in increasing his self-hatred. Similarly, parental disapproval that was likely at least partially based on religion probably also played a role. So, Islam as he understood it doesn't get a clean bill of health in this, but the situation is much more complicated.


+1
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:55     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).


Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.


No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.


Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.
.

New poster here. It sounds like he was a self-hating gay man. There are plenty in the world and unfortunately many kill themselves. Maybe he chose this other path based on that recent anti-gay talk he heard at his mosque. I'm convinced this was due to religion.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:54     Subject: Re:How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
. I agree all crimes are hateful but the designation 'hate crime' actually focuses in on a specific kind of hate. Once that door is open, you need to be more specific here. The guy was gay and hateful towards gays due to fanatical preachings - thus self hate/terrorism?
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:52     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).


This! It's a hate crime dressed up for a terrorism party.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:47     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
This is a hate crime. Period end of story. Even if he was conflicted about his own sexuality, it does not factor into the determination.

Hate is hate, is hate, is hate, is hate, is hate.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:41     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).


Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.


No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.


Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:41     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).


Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.


No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.


Whatever he internaized, if he's gay its sadly gay on gay violence, or self hate. I dont think if a black man massacred a black church because he was not ok with being black - that it would be characterized as a hate crime. Its a self hate crime.

I dont see how this is homophobia if he hung out at a gay bar and had gay sex.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:37     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.


Perfectly stated. His understanding of Islam, limited as it appears to be, likely played a role in increasing his self-hatred. Similarly, parental disapproval that was likely at least partially based on religion probably also played a role. So, Islam as he understood it doesn't get a clean bill of health in this, but the situation is much more complicated.


+1. Exactly.


A lot of 'devout' Muslims dont practice what they preach. Men have sex with boys in Afghanistan, Saudis drive to Bahrain to drink, 9-11 murderers hit strip clubs. The only group that seems to crack down is ISIS - you can't even smoke. They are late to the party, lots of 'born against from the west who dont realize how often the Muslim fundamentalists they emulate skirt the rules. They are too fanatic even for the fanatics. I also think thats why they're losing their grip.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:35     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).


Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.


No. People can internalise a lot, especially harmful stuff.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:32     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Anonymous wrote:I think it was a hate crime. I think he sympathized with ISIL because it made his feelings of violence and hate seem legitimate. It gave him a sense of purpose and focus. He hated himself and anyone who acted on the homosexual feelings he denied (or maybe he acted on them and hated himself for it).


Does anyone else think the designation hate crime doesn't quite work if he himself was gay? "self hate to gays plus hate to west (Isis element) crime"? I think its important to not give this a pat label that will obfuscate the intentions once time passes and specifics are forgotten.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:30     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
Mateen was gay and in the closet. He got outed like some of his victims, posthumously.

He was conflicted and confused by the homosexual tendencies he felt and the condemning tenets of his religion. Add a healthy dose of some psychiatric delirium and easy access to military grade weapons. The guy was gay and didn't know what to do.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:29     Subject: Re:How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
I think this is why politicians should not jump to conclusions before all of the facts are known. This USED to be standard practice but now since Trump "knows" why anything happened the second after it happened (and is also the only person who called it correctly ), others are forced to take stands sooner than they would otherwise. I don't blame HRC for going down the radical Islamist path because if she hadn't, Trump would have implied she was secretly in cahoots with the enemy as well. Just astounding the damage that having Trump as one of the nominees is causing our country - even when he is defeated (which I hope he will be), it will take a while to recover.
Anonymous
Post 06/14/2016 12:29     Subject: How does the sexual preference of the Orlando shooter change the narrative?
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is such bad news for ISIS. Do you know how much paperwork is involved in revoking the allegiance of someone posthumously?

Seriously, though. This man was not radicalized in the name of the Islamic religion. He went to the nightclub regularly for three years, drinking while there. You know who doesn't drink at nightclubs? Devout Muslims don't.

The FBI was confused by his claims to belong to several groups that were at odds with each other. Now it makes sense: He didn't know is Hezzbollah from his ISIS and wasn't inspired by any religion. He just claimed that to distract himself and/or project the image of who he wanted people to see him as, not as he really was.

He was a mentally deranged, murderous monster who was also homophobic and gay.

This will not "change the story," though. The story is out there and set and each side will use it to push their own narrative.


Perfectly stated. His understanding of Islam, limited as it appears to be, likely played a role in increasing his self-hatred. Similarly, parental disapproval that was likely at least partially based on religion probably also played a role. So, Islam as he understood it doesn't get a clean bill of health in this, but the situation is much more complicated.


+1. Exactly.