Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One word - access.

Strength of OCI/OCR & networks as well as quality of peers is what separates the good from the great.

I agree with the first, but not the second. There are Ivy qualified students at every 4 year school in the US.

There are, but I was talking about the student body as a whole. At other places the median student is a lot weaker and the low end aren't even the same species.

That makes a huge difference

The lows of the lows would probably be the same at any school

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:went to an HYP. I’ve also taught at public/private universities. The advantages of Ivy attendance were
1) Connections – For example, my first job upon graduating was a plum research assistantship that my TA had had several years before, and he recommended me. It also helped though, that I had the requisite technical skills.
2) Benefit of the doubt: For job applications early in my career, the school name got me on the short list.
3) Compared to public universities: Much easier to graduate in 4 years, since there are no class shortages.
4) Compared to smaller private universities: If you want to do a PhD in a STEM field, there’s no substitute for going to undergrad at a university with a PhD program. When I got to grad school, the SLAC graduates in my program were at sea. Their relatively small departments, with older professors focused on teaching rather than research, hadn’t offered the kind of preparation/technical skills necessary to prepare for a PhD program. The SLACs had no one who had recently gone through or who was going through such a program at the school. At the Ivy I attended, the professors/grad students knew what to teach to make me competitive for the program they were currently running/attending. People will tell you that Bio 101 or Econ 101 are the same everywhere, but they are not.
5) Also compared to some (not all) small private universities: Some of the smaller private schools are really tuition dependent and often have small endowments. They treat the kids like customers, and coursework is less challenging than at an Ivy or public flagship in order to keep grades high. Still, morale is pretty low, as the undergraduates are less of a priority than fundraising, since the schools are often kind of desperate.

Wow - is that really an issue at some schools?

At cal and ucla. Yes

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One word - access.

Strength of OCI/OCR & networks as well as quality of peers is what separates the good from the great.

I agree with the first, but not the second. There are Ivy qualified students at every 4 year school in the US.

There are, but I was talking about the student body as a whole. At other places the median student is a lot weaker and the low end aren't even the same species.

That makes a huge difference

Anonymous wrote:went to an HYP. I’ve also taught at public/private universities. The advantages of Ivy attendance were
1) Connections – For example, my first job upon graduating was a plum research assistantship that my TA had had several years before, and he recommended me. It also helped though, that I had the requisite technical skills.
2) Benefit of the doubt: For job applications early in my career, the school name got me on the short list.
3) Compared to public universities: Much easier to graduate in 4 years, since there are no class shortages.
4) Compared to smaller private universities: If you want to do a PhD in a STEM field, there’s no substitute for going to undergrad at a university with a PhD program. When I got to grad school, the SLAC graduates in my program were at sea. Their relatively small departments, with older professors focused on teaching rather than research, hadn’t offered the kind of preparation/technical skills necessary to prepare for a PhD program. The SLACs had no one who had recently gone through or who was going through such a program at the school. At the Ivy I attended, the professors/grad students knew what to teach to make me competitive for the program they were currently running/attending. People will tell you that Bio 101 or Econ 101 are the same everywhere, but they are not.
5) Also compared to some (not all) small private universities: Some of the smaller private schools are really tuition dependent and often have small endowments. They treat the kids like customers, and coursework is less challenging than at an Ivy or public flagship in order to keep grades high. Still, morale is pretty low, as the undergraduates are less of a priority than fundraising, since the schools are often kind of desperate.

Wow - is that really an issue at some schools?

went to an HYP. I’ve also taught at public/private universities. The advantages of Ivy attendance were
1) Connections – For example, my first job upon graduating was a plum research assistantship that my TA had had several years before, and he recommended me. It also helped though, that I had the requisite technical skills.
2) Benefit of the doubt: For job applications early in my career, the school name got me on the short list.
3) Compared to public universities: Much easier to graduate in 4 years, since there are no class shortages.
4) Compared to smaller private universities: If you want to do a PhD in a STEM field, there’s no substitute for going to undergrad at a university with a PhD program. When I got to grad school, the SLAC graduates in my program were at sea. Their relatively small departments, with older professors focused on teaching rather than research, hadn’t offered the kind of preparation/technical skills necessary to prepare for a PhD program. The SLACs had no one who had recently gone through or who was going through such a program at the school. At the Ivy I attended, the professors/grad students knew what to teach to make me competitive for the program they were currently running/attending. People will tell you that Bio 101 or Econ 101 are the same everywhere, but they are not.
5) Also compared to some (not all) small private universities: Some of the smaller private schools are really tuition dependent and often have small endowments. They treat the kids like customers, and coursework is less challenging than at an Ivy or public flagship in order to keep grades high. Still, morale is pretty low, as the undergraduates are less of a priority than fundraising, since the schools are often kind of desperate.

Wow, that's messed up. I'm starting to understand why my DC wanted to avoid the Ivies.

Anonymous wrote:Connections. I was able to get some key internships and early jobs in my undergraduate years simply through a professor calling up a friend and setting me up.

Ease of life afterward. I went to an Ivy undergrad and Ivy law school, and the hardest I ever worked was to get into my undergraduate school. Afterwards, the names of my schools opened doors for me that I doubt would have been opened if I went to lesser named schools.

Above has been my experience as well. Does not necessarily equate to quality or drive of the person. At my Ivy league medical school, often the top students were from top SLACs or public Ivys. But many more of my classmates were from the various Ivy undergraduate schools.

Connections. I was able to get some key internships and early jobs in my undergraduate years simply through a professor calling up a friend and setting me up.

Ease of life afterward. I went to an Ivy undergrad and Ivy law school, and the hardest I ever worked was to get into my undergraduate school. Afterwards, the names of my schools opened doors for me that I doubt would have been opened if I went to lesser named schools.

Anonymous wrote:1. A lifetime of not having to prove how smart you are...especially important for women.

2. Some organizations only higher Ivies (especially in high-level finance and top law firms)

3. You never have to apologize for where you went.
(For example...why would you go to Bates and pay private tuition when a great state university would be cheaper/better).

4. If you have to ask...

I don't think even the whitest of white shoe firms cares THAT much about where you did your undergraduate if you went to a top-ranked law school. You are right that there are firms that recruit exclusively from the top 5 or so law schools, but if you do well at Stanford or Yale Law, it's not going to matter that you got your undergraduate degree at Oberlin instead of Brown.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's definately cache. Like a pp, I still get comments about my Cornell degree, 25 years after I graduated. I doubt I'd the same reaction if I had gone to SUNY Binghamton, though truthfully the kids from my high school who went there were as smart as I was.

I always thought Cornell was just SUNY Ithaca by another name. Kind of IINO, really.

As a Cornell grad, I sometimes joke that it is SUNY-Ithaca myself, but I never mean anything negative about it. I appreciate that Cornell has land-grant colleges - they add to the overall diversity of the campus and really fit in nicely with the motto (any person, any study). Definitely more my speed than universities that didn't even start to admit women until after my birth.

But, the Cornell name does go a little further than SUNY Binghamton. Certainly not as much as HYP, but it is recognized by many as a strong school and a few even foam up over the "Ivy" association.

In my own STEM field we were recruited by some top companies that only visited a handful of campuses. Definitely some amazing opportunities that would have been tougher to find at a school that didn't have the same connections. But ultimately your own professional success comes from your achievements, not your diploma(s).

Read "Confessions of an Ivy League frat boy" before committing to Dartmouth.

Anonymous wrote:These issues are very much on our minds in my family. My grandson is admitted to Dartmouth, Amherst, and the U with oodles of merit aid from the U. No money from Dartmouth or Amherst. He will visit them all and then decide. My gut tells he will get the best education at Amherst in his non STEM
major, but that maybe because i went to a LAC and got a lot out of it. On the other hand, Dartmouth is bigger and an Ivy, and at the U he would be the top of his class with lots of extras because he would be in several special programs. He is having a hard time with the decision. Wants to do law, and I am wondering if Dartmouth would open more doors.

If he wants to go to law school, Dartmouth will not be appreciably better than the other two. What matters most will be his undergrad grades and his score on the LSAT. I wouldn't spend a lot of extra money on Dartmouth or Amherst, unless he absolutely hates Miami.

Anonymous wrote:These issues are very much on our minds in my family. My grandson is admitted to Dartmouth, Amherst, and the U with oodles of merit aid from the U. No money from Dartmouth or Amherst. He will visit them all and then decide. My gut tells he will get the best education at Amherst in his non STEM
major, but that maybe because i went to a LAC and got a lot out of it. On the other hand, Dartmouth is bigger and an Ivy, and at the U he would be the top of his class with lots of extras because he would be in several special programs. He is having a hard time with the decision. Wants to do law, and I am wondering if Dartmouth would open more doors.

Don't count on him getting the best education from Amherst. I've had some incredibly poorly educated grad students who were A students there. Also one exceptionally intelligent and reasonably well-read grad student who was an A student there. Seems like everyone's an A student at Amherst.

Anonymous wrote:There's definately cache. Like a pp, I still get comments about my Cornell degree, 25 years after I graduated. I doubt I'd the same reaction if I had gone to SUNY Binghamton, though truthfully the kids from my high school who went there were as smart as I was.

I always thought Cornell was just SUNY Ithaca by another name. Kind of IINO, really.

Anonymous wrote:These issues are very much on our minds in my family. My grandson is admitted to Dartmouth, Amherst, and the U with oodles of merit aid from the U. No money from Dartmouth or Amherst. He will visit them all and then decide. My gut tells he will get the best education at Amherst in his non STEM
major, but that maybe because i went to a LAC and got a lot out of it. On the other hand, Dartmouth is bigger and an Ivy, and at the U he would be the top of his class with lots of extras because he would be in several special programs. He is having a hard time with the decision. Wants to do law, and I am wondering if Dartmouth would open more doors.

The research on post-college success suggests he'd do best at the U in the special programs for the top-of-the-class students. Save the $$ for law school.