Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 10:14     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.


Not true of the charter sector as a whole - you can't just consider the so-called HRCs when talking about DCPS vs Charters. The students in charter schools are, on the whole, more disadvantaged than the students in DCPS. And the kids in those schools, on average, are doing better than those in DCPS. http://www.dcpcsb.org/facts-and-figures-student-demographics


I think that's weighted heavily by the Prep-type academies, which show significantly better results in high poverty schools than DCPS. On average, Charters and DCPS are pretty close in performance. It would be interesting to see the data broken down to see if DCPS actually outperforms Charters with kids from mid / high SES families.


This entire line of argument is so very, very useless to the real work decisions that families must make about their kid's education. Other than navel gazing public olicy people and bored SAHM/SAHD on DCUM, no one sits around and looks at blended PARCC score data to determine whether to send their kid to DCPS or a charter. If they are looking at scores (I know I do) they are looking at comparisons of schools at which their kid could attend. I don't live in upper NW so the scores of JKLM are not going to help me decide if I am comfortable with my IB DCPS school. And I'm no more sending my kid to a crappy Tier 3 charter than I am sending them to KIPP, so those scores are of no interest to me either. My decision is about individual schools that are possibilities for my family based on location (commute), school offerings, success rates, etc.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 10:07     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:Oh good! I was hoping for another charter vs DCPS post. Let's make sure no parents that are mindful enough to look at the big picture of education in DC get a chance to show up.



At least this one is honest about what it is. I prefer direct BS to the usual DCUM M/O where an otherwise innocent question is hijacked and morphed into this inane DCPS vs Charter death match crap.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 10:06     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.


I live EOTP and send my daughter to our in bounds DCPS, which is not highly regarded on this site, has a large percentage of low SES kids, and didn't score well on PARCC. By and large, our experiences have been wonderful, being on the front end of the "turnaround."

I want to be clear that even in shitty schools, education is still happening somewhere. There are strong teachers who do the best they can with what they are given by DCPS to support their students' learning - intellectual, emotional, social. There are also motivated parents in very low income schools who care deeply about their children's education. It is not an either/or situation.

I can understand completely how a motivated parent of a child in a failing school in SE DC would find a charter school attractive. Our school community is not cohesive. The PTO is active on some things, but parent engagement is always hard, particularly in a community where everyone works, some at multiple jobs. We do the best we can, but it's still frustrating sometimes to feel like you are the only one who is working hard (even if you know in your heart that you are not actually the only one). There have been more than a few times when I have considered sending my child to a "better" school, if only because there are times when I really wish I could be disengaged and still remain confident that her experience of school will be great. I can only imagine how the motivated parent at the failing SE DC school feels, with the added pressure that education is one of the only things that effectively breaks the cycle of poverty.

We all want what's best for our kids. In my part of the city (Ward 1), the perception that charters are better than the local DCPS is not entirely accurate. If measuring things by test score, many of the "better" charters have not even been around long enough to have test scores. There are also barriers to charter entry that do not exist for DCPS - including selection bias of who applies and the ability to counsel out kids who are not succeeding at charters (I don't think this happens as much as many fear, but it does happen). In any case, I think that some of the PPs are correct when they say that the main differentiator between charters and DCPS EOTP but WOTR is the SES of the student body. EOTR, however, the same does not hold true. There are schools with strong communities, but there are also a lot of schools that are simply failing, and charters that outperform them by leaps and bounds.

The thing is, though, that the parents in those schools who choose charters (any of the ~15 KIPP campuses, for example) were not going to vote with their feet on education anyway. For those families, it's not "charters or suburbs." It's "charters or almost guaranteed educational failure."

In WOTR DC, it used to be like that. The "competition" between DCPS and charters now, however, seems to be one of perception, rather than one based on reality. I'm committed to the school my child attends now. In middle school, we will have some other things to consider, but that's not for several years. I do think that starting last year or so, the "DC parents have so much choice" argument is beginning to flatten. There are a lot more kids entering the system city-wide, and many of those kids will end up attending their EOTP schools by default, because there will be no space at WOTP schools for OOB kids or charters for non-siblings. If that turns those EOTP schools around as happened to Deal or Eaton or Ross, that's great. I'm sure some families will still choose to move out of DC anyway, and cite "shitty schools" as the reason for doing so.


+1

This describes my family's experience as well. Thank you so much for posting. The whole fallacy around "winning the lottery" to get into a "superior" charter school is utter garbage. When we decided to send our daughter to our IB EOTP school, I could not believe the responses we got from "friends" in DC who were appalled that we were not ranking charter schools above our IB DCPS option. We visited all the charter schools that are considered "superior" on DCUM and you know what? Our IB EOTP school checked far more boxes for our family than any of them. It's not only a commitment to our community that keeps us in our IB DCPS school, it's also the fact that it's the best school for my daughter. If more parents would actually visit these schools and give them an equal shot against their biased and misled assumptions about charter schools or WOTP DCPS, I'm willing to bet they'd come to the same conclusion.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 10:04     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We stayed in DC for our EOTP DCPS. But I think your question is oversimplified BS and unnecessarily divisive. This is DCUM, not Fox News.


How is this divisive? Its a calculation every single parent is probably making at some point, Hell if DCPS was smart they would be the one asking this question. With a follow up "what specifically can DCPS do to get you to stay at your IB" (tracking, test in, gifted classes--but that is roundly ignored so they stop asking).


Because it pushes the narrative you're either a DCPS parent or a charter parent. I am and I've met too many people in the gray area. Consider this:
Some parents want to be able to choose a DCPS for ES, a charter for MS, and an application DCPS for HS (or some other variation of that). How does that fit your question?
Some parents want a strong neighborhood school and also options for other specialized things (e.g., language immersion, montessori, etc.), and as an incubator for new ideas.

I'm pretty pro-DCPS, but there's also room for Charter schools in the equation too.
I'd be happy to see the Tier 3 charters closed down, and even Tier 2s that aren't doing any better than the surrounding neighborhood schools. Then, expand the Tier 1s, or have them bring their programs into DCPS.


This. Most people (not on DCUM or with a vested interest in the DCPS system) don't see the world this way. We want a good school for our kid.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:54     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:Some day DCPS will be willing to do what it takes to create neighborhood middle and high schools that are safe from violence and provide a curriculum that will challenge high-achieving kids. Until then, the charters will thrive.


You mean, some day every parent will work hard to make sure their child isn't perpetuating violence that plagues DCPS and our city in general. DCPS is doing what it can with a very diverse student body. Don't be laying all the blame on them when parents are also letting their kids run wild.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:39     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
The possibility of a charter middle school is the only reason we're willing to try out our neighborhood school. If Dunbar/Eastern/Cardozo were our only options, we'd wouldn't have bought a house in the city.

Some day DCPS will be willing to do what it takes to create neighborhood middle and high schools that are safe from violence and provide a curriculum that will challenge high-achieving kids. Until then, the charters will thrive.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:38     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.


I live EOTP and send my daughter to our in bounds DCPS, which is not highly regarded on this site, has a large percentage of low SES kids, and didn't score well on PARCC. By and large, our experiences have been wonderful, being on the front end of the "turnaround."

I want to be clear that even in shitty schools, education is still happening somewhere. There are strong teachers who do the best they can with what they are given by DCPS to support their students' learning - intellectual, emotional, social. There are also motivated parents in very low income schools who care deeply about their children's education. It is not an either/or situation.

I can understand completely how a motivated parent of a child in a failing school in SE DC would find a charter school attractive. Our school community is not cohesive. The PTO is active on some things, but parent engagement is always hard, particularly in a community where everyone works, some at multiple jobs. We do the best we can, but it's still frustrating sometimes to feel like you are the only one who is working hard (even if you know in your heart that you are not actually the only one). There have been more than a few times when I have considered sending my child to a "better" school, if only because there are times when I really wish I could be disengaged and still remain confident that her experience of school will be great. I can only imagine how the motivated parent at the failing SE DC school feels, with the added pressure that education is one of the only things that effectively breaks the cycle of poverty.

We all want what's best for our kids. In my part of the city (Ward 1), the perception that charters are better than the local DCPS is not entirely accurate. If measuring things by test score, many of the "better" charters have not even been around long enough to have test scores. There are also barriers to charter entry that do not exist for DCPS - including selection bias of who applies and the ability to counsel out kids who are not succeeding at charters (I don't think this happens as much as many fear, but it does happen). In any case, I think that some of the PPs are correct when they say that the main differentiator between charters and DCPS EOTP but WOTR is the SES of the student body. EOTR, however, the same does not hold true. There are schools with strong communities, but there are also a lot of schools that are simply failing, and charters that outperform them by leaps and bounds.

The thing is, though, that the parents in those schools who choose charters (any of the ~15 KIPP campuses, for example) were not going to vote with their feet on education anyway. For those families, it's not "charters or suburbs." It's "charters or almost guaranteed educational failure."

In WOTR DC, it used to be like that. The "competition" between DCPS and charters now, however, seems to be one of perception, rather than one based on reality. I'm committed to the school my child attends now. In middle school, we will have some other things to consider, but that's not for several years. I do think that starting last year or so, the "DC parents have so much choice" argument is beginning to flatten. There are a lot more kids entering the system city-wide, and many of those kids will end up attending their EOTP schools by default, because there will be no space at WOTP schools for OOB kids or charters for non-siblings. If that turns those EOTP schools around as happened to Deal or Eaton or Ross, that's great. I'm sure some families will still choose to move out of DC anyway, and cite "shitty schools" as the reason for doing so.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:37     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.


Not true of the charter sector as a whole - you can't just consider the so-called HRCs when talking about DCPS vs Charters. The students in charter schools are, on the whole, more disadvantaged than the students in DCPS. And the kids in those schools, on average, are doing better than those in DCPS. http://www.dcpcsb.org/facts-and-figures-student-demographics


I think that's weighted heavily by the Prep-type academies, which show significantly better results in high poverty schools than DCPS. On average, Charters and DCPS are pretty close in performance. It would be interesting to see the data broken down to see if DCPS actually outperforms Charters with kids from mid / high SES families.


Do a search for the recent PARCC scores for this. Lots of people did that comparison for both the elementary and middle/high schools.

Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:30     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.


Not true of the charter sector as a whole - you can't just consider the so-called HRCs when talking about DCPS vs Charters. The students in charter schools are, on the whole, more disadvantaged than the students in DCPS. And the kids in those schools, on average, are doing better than those in DCPS. http://www.dcpcsb.org/facts-and-figures-student-demographics


I think that's weighted heavily by the Prep-type academies, which show significantly better results in high poverty schools than DCPS. On average, Charters and DCPS are pretty close in performance. It would be interesting to see the data broken down to see if DCPS actually outperforms Charters with kids from mid / high SES families.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:19     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.



The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?


+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:16     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.


Not true of the charter sector as a whole - you can't just consider the so-called HRCs when talking about DCPS vs Charters. The students in charter schools are, on the whole, more disadvantaged than the students in DCPS. And the kids in those schools, on average, are doing better than those in DCPS. http://www.dcpcsb.org/facts-and-figures-student-demographics
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 09:02     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 08:28     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Anonymous wrote:Oh good! I was hoping for another charter vs DCPS post. Let's make sure no parents that are mindful enough to look at the big picture of education in DC get a chance to show up.



It's actually not so bad so far. Only about 50% have taken the bait, the rest have called OP out.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 07:40     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Oh good! I was hoping for another charter vs DCPS post. Let's make sure no parents that are mindful enough to look at the big picture of education in DC get a chance to show up.

Anonymous
Post 02/05/2016 07:38     Subject: Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?
Are you kidding me?

DCPS had a long time as the only player in town. And they didn't improve across the board enough to attract middle class families to stay. Hence, charters enter.

We are at a HRCS- despite being inbounds for an excellent DCPS. We just chose the learning model that our HRCS provides as being the right fit for our family.

And contrary to the previous poster, LAMB, Yu Ying, Mundo Verde- they are real options, and their existence allows multiple families to stay in DC and build long term roots.