Anonymous wrote:Can someone give me specific examples of emotional labor? The only thing I can think of is supporting a relative who is going through difficult times for whatever reason. Postcards, elaborate dinners, laundry and shopping sound like physical tasks. I guess there's the planning component, but how emotional is a to-do list, really?

I see references in the PPs to several documents, but I followed the article link that the MetaFilter posting appeared to be in reference to, and the things the author mentioned were:

listening to people

comforting people

advising people

Mostly, being up in their personal business and not just up in it, but emotionally engaged in it. Which made her sound like a busybody/noseyparker to me.

Can someone give me specific examples of emotional labor? The only thing I can think of is supporting a relative who is going through difficult times for whatever reason. Postcards, elaborate dinners, laundry and shopping sound like physical tasks. I guess there's the planning component, but how emotional is a to-do list, really?

Anonymous wrote:What I get out of it is the emotional well being of people I care about / the improvement of my family unit. Which is important enough for me to do some of these things myself, but doesn't remove the resentment that my spouse has externalized the costs of these efforts to me.

I'm the PP you are replying to, and I go back to my point you get something out of it (bolded above). The answer is really simple: either it's important enough to you to do it, or it's not important enough. If it's not important enough to your husband to do himself (on point to my response #5) or to ask you to do for him (in which case he damn well ought to express gratitude), then you shouldn't presume it on his behalf (and be resentful).

Anonymous wrote:As a number of people in the MetaFilter discussion thread pointed out, children really change the dynamics / calculus of these discussions. For example in the case of ILs maintaining connections via DILs - yes you can push back against this, but if you value the relationship between your children and their grandparents a lot of women will suck it up and carry their husbands portion of the burden so that the children don't suffer.

I agree that children are higher stakes (they are absolutely a shared project and hopefully of greater importance than anything else to the parents) but the same basic dynamic applies.

The ILs discussion is a classic case where boundaries are called for - it's on each partner to maintain/run interference/be the primary point of contact with their own FOO. It is a boundary violation on the part of ILs (either DIL or FIL/MIL) to circumvent that. For all you know, no matter how you value "the relationship between your children and their grandparents", the grandparent's child may not want that relationship, and they may have reasons for being alienated from their own parents. And again...it's how much you value it that you're back to discussing...the resentment is directly proportional to how important it is to you that your spouse do X.

I'm not saying all expectations or resentments are wrong but I am saying we all have the primary responsibility of seeing that our expectations or desires are met. As another PP noted: we have to reach agreement about what it is we value before you can expect equal commitment - this part/step is very very frequently ignored or omitted. Hopefully WRT children this conversation happens well in advance of having them (will they spend lots of time w/ grandparents, will they be introduced to religion, what kind of education should they receive, etc. etc.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But I don't care what you think, or that some women marginalize emotional labor. You are totally irrelevant to me and to my point about having a conversation on DCUM v. MetaFilter. Try to keep up.

Why not ditch DCUM and just hang out on MetaFilter?

I actually prefer this discussion so I can see what both sides have to say. (That's what my original comment said, too.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny because although the responses from men here are infuriatingly dense, this is in some ways a more satisfactory conversation than could be had at MetaFilter because those comments would be deleted as trollish. So at least on DCUM you see what the seamy bear-and-testosterone underbelly of mannishness is actually thinking; you're not protected from it.

I (woman) actually agree with many comments. Not the rude ones (from both sexes), but the ones that talk about many women taking on too many completely unnecessary tasks. So please don't generalize. Not all women are like you

But I don't care what you think, or that some women marginalize emotional labor. You are totally irrelevant to me and to my point about having a conversation on DCUM v. MetaFilter. Try to keep up.

Oh I see. You're here to hear yourself talk. To see yourself type, that is LOL

Anonymous wrote:The book you're actually looking for is "Wife work" by Susan Maushart. Here's a link to a review:
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-58234-202-3

She wrote this a while ago and it's a great explanation of this idea that women do a lot of 'emotional caretaking' that men fail to see -- both of other family members and of the men themselves. Women are still judged for not providing this emotional caretaking (i.e. a bad mother fails to notice that her son is failing math; but no one calls the dad a 'bad dad' if HE fails to notice; a bad mom fails to notice that her teen daughter is being bullied, has an eating disorder, etc. She spends hours 'discussing' with the daughter things like whether she can get a tattoo, get her ears pierced, etc. No one expects the man to do the same thing. When my husband goes grocery shopping, he can't call up that long list of who won't eat blueberry waffles, who will ONLY eat blueberry waffles, who won't eat the yogurt with the things in it, etc. He just buys food. But if I did that, oh boy!)

She says that this explains why married men live longer and married women live less long than single women; why women suffer from higher levels of depression. . .

I read this as the mother of three toddlers with a deployed husband and BOY did it hit home! It was also one heck of a depressing read because she doesn't really provide a solution -- But both spouses should read this book because it lays out the problem so clearly and gives you a lot to discuss.

Where do you get this? In my experience, parents are always blamed in tandem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

I"m going to bet that 100% of woman can relate to this.

And that a mans reactions will be split three ways:

1) That's bullshit, just a bunch of women whining (defensive)
2) I don't understand (no interest in spending any time or energy in hearing from women about women)
3) Wow. Huh. I never realized... I never thought of it that way before... (OMG, HE'S A KEEPER!)

And then there's this option:


4) Why do you keep expending all this effort for free if nobody is offering to pay you? What are you getting out of it that makes you keep coming back again and again?

I mean, I'm a guy, and I have a pickup truck and I used to have that thing where every single friend who needs something moved calls me up, over and over, but they never offer to pay me for my moving services. I mean: I've got a life too...and I don't want to spend every weekend doing heavy lifting or loaning out my vehicle. Yes, sure, I'm pretty strong physically, have a good back, so I'm just naturally "built" for this kind of work, plus, hey, I've got a pickup. Why do people assume that I want to move stuff for free? Well...because they are my friends, and they need favors. They are going to ask. And the thing is, I just have to say, "gee, I'm sorry, but I'm already committed".

The fact that the author doesn't seem to be able to say no to all these Emotional Leeches who chain her to the grindstone of the Patriarchy and extort Emotional Labor out of her, when she's pretty clearly drained by it, says to me, she gets something out of it. Kind of the way Nice Guys(TM) like to get something (a date of sorts?) out of providing free moving labor for Hot Women they lust after (and then bitch endlessly when the transactional hookup doesn't occur).

I'm a PP up thread who posted about the costs even if we opt out.

What I get out of it is the emotional well being of people I care about / the improvement of my family unit. Which is important enough for me to do some of these things myself, but doesn't remove the resentment that my spouse has externalized the costs of these efforts to me.

As a number of people in the MetaFilter discussion thread pointed out, children really change the dynamics / calculus of these discussions. For example in the case of ILs maintaining connections via DILs - yes you can push back against this, but if you value the relationship between your children and their grandparents a lot of women will suck it up and carry their husbands portion of the burden so that the children don't suffer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically that is a list of things made up by women that just HAVE to be done so they won't be judged by OTHER women. They can't understand why men don't want to do their list and because of that, they have the right to think of themselves as victims.

Here are some tips to help the ladies

1. No one has ever died from sitting on a toilet with a ring around the bowl
2. I cooked dinner and played with the kids. I am going to relax a little. I'm not emptying the dishwasher tonight. Get what you need out of it and I'll empty it tomorrow.
3. The trash isn't being picked up tonight. I will take it to the curb in the morning when I go outside to warm up my car.
4. Yes I am aware there is laundry in the hamper. I will do some of it as I'm watching the playoffs this weekend.
5. I don't care if my dad gets a birthday card. Don't get mad at me because you decided to burden yourself with that chore.
6. Yes I saw the dirt on the kitchen floor. As soon as it doubles in size it will be big enough for me to care enough to sweep it up.
7. I know I left my beer bottle on the end table. I will throw it away when I sit down in the morning because it will be in the way of my coffee cup.

I think no. 5 sums it up for a lot of men. "I would be happy with ordered pizza for every Thanksgiving, so why do you knock yourself out?" They don't necessarily appreciate the importance of relationship-glue rituals and activities.

That assumes they are important. You have to establish that first. If I get together for pizza with my buddies on a regular basis, that is sufficient glue to hold us together. I wouldn't hang out with guys who needed lots of bells and whistles. I don't get to pick my family -- I'd prefer to just stick with the ones who would be content with a pizza. The other members aren't usually worth the effort.

Even if you establish that those rituals are important (and I personally think they are), pizza may well be enough of a ritual for many people.

Anonymous wrote:But I don't care what you think, or that some women marginalize emotional labor. You are totally irrelevant to me and to my point about having a conversation on DCUM v. MetaFilter. Try to keep up.

Why not ditch DCUM and just hang out on MetaFilter?

Anonymous wrote:I think no. 5 sums it up for a lot of men. "I would be happy with ordered pizza for every Thanksgiving, so why do you knock yourself out?" They don't necessarily appreciate the importance of relationship-glue rituals and activities.

That is because they don't agree that the rituals and activities are as important as you think they are. Do you really think watching the playoffs is as important as your spouse thinks they are?

#5 is much more spot on: Neither I nor my father care about his birthday card, only you do. So feel free to knock yourself out getting it, but don't expect to be compensated for doing something nobody asked for.

My first wife said to me - in regards to laundry, after she'd shrunk a lot of clothes -"you want it done a particular way - YOU DO IT." And she was right. Take ownership (responsibility) for the things that are important TO YOU and don't project those (or the ensuing obligatory gratitude) onto others. I can't stand the way my now-wife loads the dishwasher, so I do it 90% of the time (and unload) and I don't comment on her loading job if she did it.

Yes, I am a feminist - I support the radical notion that women are people and have just as much responsibility for their own happiness as any man.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny because although the responses from men here are infuriatingly dense, this is in some ways a more satisfactory conversation than could be had at MetaFilter because those comments would be deleted as trollish. So at least on DCUM you see what the seamy bear-and-testosterone underbelly of mannishness is actually thinking; you're not protected from it.

I (woman) actually agree with many comments. Not the rude ones (from both sexes), but the ones that talk about many women taking on too many completely unnecessary tasks. So please don't generalize. Not all women are like you

But I don't care what you think, or that some women marginalize emotional labor. You are totally irrelevant to me and to my point about having a conversation on DCUM v. MetaFilter. Try to keep up.

Anonymous wrote:
4) Why do you keep expending all this effort for free if nobody is offering to pay you? What are you getting out of it that makes you keep coming back again and again?

I mean, I'm a guy, and I have a pickup truck and I used to have that thing where every single friend who needs something moved calls me up, over and over, but they never offer to pay me for my moving services. I mean: I've got a life too...and I don't want to spend every weekend doing heavy lifting or loaning out my vehicle. Yes, sure, I'm pretty strong physically, have a good back, so I'm just naturally "built" for this kind of work, plus, hey, I've got a pickup. Why do people assume that I want to move stuff for free? Well...because they are my friends, and they need favors. They are going to ask. And the thing is, I just have to say, "gee, I'm sorry, but I'm already committed".

The fact that the author doesn't seem to be able to say no to all these Emotional Leeches who chain her to the grindstone of the Patriarchy and extort Emotional Labor out of her, when she's pretty clearly drained by it, says to me, she gets something out of it. Kind of the way Nice Guys(TM) like to get something (a date of sorts?) out of providing free moving labor for Hot Women they lust after (and then bitch endlessly when the transactional hookup doesn't occur).

Oh, I guess there is a 5th option I forgot about:

5) Do you have appropriate boundaries? You sound like you need to take a dose of MYOB and give yourself an emotional rest.

If this person was in my life, I think I'd tend to pull away, because frankly, I'm not sure I actually want someone investing that much emotional energy in me when I'm not actively reciprocating it.

Anonymous wrote:It's funny because although the responses from men here are infuriatingly dense, this is in some ways a more satisfactory conversation than could be had at MetaFilter because those comments would be deleted as trollish. So at least on DCUM you see what the seamy bear-and-testosterone underbelly of mannishness is actually thinking; you're not protected from it.

I (woman) actually agree with many comments. Not the rude ones (from both sexes), but the ones that talk about many women taking on too many completely unnecessary tasks. So please don't generalize. Not all women are like you

Anonymous wrote:http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

I"m going to bet that 100% of woman can relate to this.

And that a mans reactions will be split three ways:

1) That's bullshit, just a bunch of women whining (defensive)
2) I don't understand (no interest in spending any time or energy in hearing from women about women)
3) Wow. Huh. I never realized... I never thought of it that way before... (OMG, HE'S A KEEPER!)

And then there's this option:


4) Why do you keep expending all this effort for free if nobody is offering to pay you? What are you getting out of it that makes you keep coming back again and again?

I mean, I'm a guy, and I have a pickup truck and I used to have that thing where every single friend who needs something moved calls me up, over and over, but they never offer to pay me for my moving services. I mean: I've got a life too...and I don't want to spend every weekend doing heavy lifting or loaning out my vehicle. Yes, sure, I'm pretty strong physically, have a good back, so I'm just naturally "built" for this kind of work, plus, hey, I've got a pickup. Why do people assume that I want to move stuff for free? Well...because they are my friends, and they need favors. They are going to ask. And the thing is, I just have to say, "gee, I'm sorry, but I'm already committed".

The fact that the author doesn't seem to be able to say no to all these Emotional Leeches who chain her to the grindstone of the Patriarchy and extort Emotional Labor out of her, when she's pretty clearly drained by it, says to me, she gets something out of it. Kind of the way Nice Guys(TM) like to get something (a date of sorts?) out of providing free moving labor for Hot Women they lust after (and then bitch endlessly when the transactional hookup doesn't occur).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A woman here, and this was an interesting read. I think there is a lot of truth here. However, I have a visceral reaction to anything that just completely categorizes how women think vs how men think. I can relate to some things said in the thread, but not others - I don't think I am a "stereotypical" woman, whatever that means.

Couldn't this be summed up by saying that it should be important to everyone to be emotionally supportive of your family and friends and spouses, to maintain and nurture those relationships? And that in many cases, it's often the females who take on more of this role? But isn't this like any division of roles between two partners - you communicate and you come to an understanding of what your roles are, and if something is not working, you communicate some more and come up with a better solution together, right?

I think that is exactly the point of it alll - that Emotional Labor shouldn't be done by JUST one person in a relationship - be they man or woman. That EVERYONE needs to do it.

Hell - business people would benefit greatly if they took the time and effort to pay attention to their clients and do a little "emotional labor" - you hear about that certain salesman who knows all the kids of all his clients and asks about them and how they are doing in college - it takes WORK to keep up that information but the person does it because he/she knows 1/it is appreciated and 2/it is good for his/her business to have a relationship with clients.

My take on all of it - no person should be expected to do anything under the assumption that their gender is "better at it". I am FUCKING NOT BETTER AT LAUNDRY. No one wants to clean toilets. No one wants to fold clothes. Making doc appointments, taking kids to their events, being the person on call - these things and all the other examples should be shared duties. A wife should not automatically get burdened with all the chores and child rearing because she is female - but it's true. Meet a woman that doesn't like kids and society goes "ew, whats wrong with her" but meet a man who doesn't want kids and nobody cares.

Its a double standard. ME? I would LOVE a wife that does everything I do. Come home from work and do nothing the rest of the night while I'm fed a home cooked meal and someone else takes care of the house and the kids? SIGN ME UP! (that's the deal my husband has had for a long time due to various things - but 4 years ago I went back to work full time, am now the major breadwinner and provide all the benefits for the family, and yet all of the other roles have not changed at all. Believe me, I have tried. Exhausted? I'm worn out. Yes, we're in counseling, 9 months and so far no progress.)

Is your laundry emotional too? LOL I think some of you are very confused about emotional v. physical labor.