Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again - I also was wondering if this is something many women have experienced, and if it is somehow a "normalized" behavior amongst some guys. With a couple of people here already responding they've experienced something similar, it seems not terribly uncommon? Not trying to justify it or minimize it AT ALL, just wondering about others who've been through it, if there's some way this guy has convinced himself based on convos with other guys that this would be acceptable, if anyone has come back from this in a relationship.

My DH gives it the old college effort by starting it in with me when I'm sleeping. Unlike your friend, I'm healthy enough to use the word NO whenever I don't want something to happen, I'm not exactly into playing the victim and then bitching about something when I never bothered to speak up, so for that she definitely needs some help and maybe a break from romantic relationships for the sake of everyone involved.

Most times I like it and get into it. He's even given me an orgasm when I'm half asleep which is pretty incredible.

Way to blame the victim, PP. Until this kind of mindset changes, martital rape will still be considered the problem of the woman. Much like we like to call pediophilia in other cultures "child brides".

If you have entered into MARRIAGE with someone and are too petrified to say the word NO when your HUSBAND is trying to finger you, yes, you have major mental problems and should not be in any sort of sexual situation, until you get major psychological help. Take some responsibility as a grown up and act like one. I feel sorry for the husband.

Anonymous wrote:I think they are both at fault, even thought that may sound bad. Husband should not have done that and at the very least should not have defended it after hearing what she felt. But at the same time I don't understand her reaction of "fear" upon waking up. That is not a normal response to your husband touching you unless he is abusive to her or that is the same way she was abused in the past. It's not like she woke up after falling asleep on the metro to a stranger fingering her. There is a huge communication Gap between her and her husband if that is her response, which is the only reason I don't think he is fully at fault.

+1

If a stranger does this to you we know what to call it, why is it different if it's your husband?? Why does it matter what it's called??

if someone is touching you inappropriately it needs to stop. Now that he knows it's unwanted. If he does it again - that is a huge problem.

What would you teach your daughter or son in this situation??? Just allow someone to do something psyisicalcy to you that you don't want. F*ck NO!!!

Marital rape is handled differently than "regular" rape in many states.

Maryland for example: "Maryland law states that, if the spouses are living together, a prosecution can take place only if the accused "uses force or threat of force and the act is without the consent of the spouse." If the spouses are separated they are treated as if they were strangers (See Section § 3-318)[31]"

I don't think fondling could be charged as rape in Maryland in that case...I could be wrong though. Doesn't sound like the Friends husband was using any force.

My husband does this to me also, I've just learned to live with it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So when you're awake, your husband immediately jumps to digital penetration? No gentle stroking, no lead in? No kind words, no warm up befo re you "let him in?

He's not letting her wake up. He's jumping in with all fingers before she has a chance to wake up or consent.. That's the problem.

Is it really just the penetration that's the problem? So, where does it become rape? Unconsenting, sleeping stroking of the arm? Stroking of the belly? Stroking of the inner thighs? Stroking of the vagina but no penetration? Where is the line and why?

It's defined in statute. Which state are you interested in? You can't touch another person sexually without consent, and if the person is sleeping, she's not consenting.

Anonymous wrote:

So when you're awake, your husband immediately jumps to digital penetration? No gentle stroking, no lead in? No kind words, no warm up befo re you "let him in?

He's not letting her wake up. He's jumping in with all fingers before she has a chance to wake up or consent.. That's the problem.

Is it really just the penetration that's the problem? So, where does it become rape? Unconsenting, sleeping stroking of the arm? Stroking of the belly? Stroking of the inner thighs? Stroking of the vagina but no penetration? Where is the line and why?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again - I also was wondering if this is something many women have experienced, and if it is somehow a "normalized" behavior amongst some guys. With a couple of people here already responding they've experienced something similar, it seems not terribly uncommon? Not trying to justify it or minimize it AT ALL, just wondering about others who've been through it, if there's some way this guy has convinced himself based on convos with other guys that this would be acceptable, if anyone has come back from this in a relationship.

My DH gives it the old college effort by starting it in with me when I'm sleeping. Unlike your friend, I'm healthy enough to use the word NO whenever I don't want something to happen, I'm not exactly into playing the victim and then bitching about something when I never bothered to speak up, so for that she definitely needs some help and maybe a break from romantic relationships for the sake of everyone involved.

Most times I like it and get into it. He's even given me an orgasm when I'm half asleep which is pretty incredible.

Way to blame the victim, PP. Until this kind of mindset changes, martital rape will still be considered the problem of the woman. Much like we like to call pediophilia in other cultures "child brides".

Anonymous wrote:OP again - I also was wondering if this is something many women have experienced, and if it is somehow a "normalized" behavior amongst some guys. With a couple of people here already responding they've experienced something similar, it seems not terribly uncommon? Not trying to justify it or minimize it AT ALL, just wondering about others who've been through it, if there's some way this guy has convinced himself based on convos with other guys that this would be acceptable, if anyone has come back from this in a relationship.

My DH gives it the old college effort by starting it in with me when I'm sleeping. Unlike your friend, I'm healthy enough to use the word NO whenever I don't want something to happen, I'm not exactly into playing the victim and then bitching about something when I never bothered to speak up, so for that she definitely needs some help and maybe a break from romantic relationships for the sake of everyone involved.

Most times I like it and get into it. He's even given me an orgasm when I'm half asleep which is pretty incredible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually feel ill reading this, realizing how many people out there don't feel this is rape.

Friend is frozen because that's a normal reaction to being violated - it's a flight reaction when you can't (or feel you can't) physically flee. She's fleeing emotionally and detaching her body from her emotional centre.

Please have her call the hotline. This is not okay.

On another note, I find it creepy that a man would even want sex with a sleeping /unresponsive woman. Says a lot, IMHO, about their general feelings about women.

Ok now come on, there is nothing strange or creepy about a man waking up horny and wanting sex. It sounded like he was trying to turn her on. I mean she isn't sleeping with her brother, she's sleeping with her husband. The only strange and unsettling thing in this situation is that the wife didn't say she wasn't into it when it was happening which is misleading on her part. To have sex at night or in the morning it usually take one spouse waking the other up to do it. If I woke up to my DH touching me in an intimate way I would respond with love not fear. Or I would just TELL him I was tired and to stop. The husband is probably very upset because he would never try to rape his wife and doesn't understand why she wouldn't say anything if she wasn't into it. If she was so frozen in fear that she couldn't say anything when the man she chose to marry and sleep with came onto her sexually in their bed, then they are clearly not a good match and should separate.

So when you're awake, your husband immediately jumps to digital penetration? No gentle stroking, no lead in? No kind words, no warm up befo re you "let him in?

He's not letting her wake up. He's jumping in with all fingers before she has a chance to wake up or consent.. That's the problem.

There's marital rape of the "Joan and Greg in that episode of Mad Men" variety and marital rape/sexual assault of the "she didn't actively say no" variety.

Society's certainly advanced from the 1940s where the reaction to marital rape was "DOES NOT COMPUTE YOU DIVIDED BY ZERO" (and come on, many if not most women love love love that scene from Gone with the Wind). Now, I think most of us can acknowledge something like "Joan and Greg in that episode of Mad Men" is rape.

The latter -- yes, it's rape, but does OP's friend really want to see her husband raked over the coals at trial (not to mention what a trial would do to her), sent to jail/probation, possibly losing his job (and hence her child support) ... or does OP's friend want to see a counselor, talk to her husband, etc., before going all nuclear? On the other hand I suspect the friend's talked to her husband who's gone all "Haha you silly woman, I know you want my schlong and my manly manliness."

It's not cool.

It meets the legal definition of rape/sexual assault (don't some states require PIV in order for it to be rape as opposed to "lesser" sexual assault?)

But OP's friend has to be very careful about what she does if she decides to pursue official remedies for this situation. Informal ones, such as individual or marital counseling, or a no-fault divorce, yes. Those can be pursued. But the legal system is a bell that cannot be unrung.

I think they are both at fault, even thought that may sound bad. Husband should not have done that and at the very least should not have defended it after hearing what she felt. But at the same time I don't understand her reaction of "fear" upon waking up. That is not a normal response to your husband touching you unless he is abusive to her or that is the same way she was abused in the past. It's not like she woke up after falling asleep on the metro to a stranger fingering her. There is a huge communication Gap between her and her husband if that is her response, which is the only reason I don't think he is fully at fault.

Anonymous wrote:I actually feel ill reading this, realizing how many people out there don't feel this is rape.

Friend is frozen because that's a normal reaction to being violated - it's a flight reaction when you can't (or feel you can't) physically flee. She's fleeing emotionally and detaching her body from her emotional centre.

Please have her call the hotline. This is not okay.

On another note, I find it creepy that a man would even want sex with a sleeping /unresponsive woman. Says a lot, IMHO, about their general feelings about women.

Ok now come on, there is nothing strange or creepy about a man waking up horny and wanting sex. It sounded like he was trying to turn her on. I mean she isn't sleeping with her brother, she's sleeping with her husband. The only strange and unsettling thing in this situation is that the wife didn't say she wasn't into it when it was happening which is misleading on her part. To have sex at night or in the morning it usually take one spouse waking the other up to do it. If I woke up to my DH touching me in an intimate way I would respond with love not fear. Or I would just TELL him I was tired and to stop. The husband is probably very upset because he would never try to rape his wife and doesn't understand why she wouldn't say anything if she wasn't into it. If she was so frozen in fear that she couldn't say anything when the man she chose to marry and sleep with came onto her sexually in their bed, then they are clearly not a good match and should separate.

Anonymous wrote:It is assault. She doesn't need to tell him no. He needs to wait for her to say yes

And it has to be an unsolicited "yes." If he requests sex, some women could feel that as coercion and feel an obligation to say "yes," even though she isn't enthusiastically consenting. I don't know why men would even want coerced sex.

OP, I'm sorry your friend is going through this. At the very minimum, her husband should be doing whatever he can to make her feel safe/not blame her. It's worrisome that he is blaming her, to say the least. I understand the freezing thing. I, unfortunately, had a couple of experiences when I was a teenager when I awoke to a boy touching me inappropriately (to put it extremely mildly) and just pretended to be asleep so it would be over. That was really scary and horrific. But these boys were not my husband, they were "friends" (I guess not really friends in retrospect), so it seemed extremely threatening. It is terrible that she feels this way about her husband, it must be very traumatic for her. Has your friend's husband at least promised never to that again?

I don't know what's normal in other bedrooms, but I don't think this is a troll and there is a strange line somewhere. In contrast to my teenage experiences, my husband has initiated sex after I've gone to sleep - but by that I mean coming over to me and rubbing my shoulders, perhaps touching my breasts, and that wakes me up. And then if I'm in the mood, we will have sex and if I'm not I tell him that I'm sorry but I am too tired, not in the mood, etc. He has never persisted, and I have never thought of him waking me up in such a manner to be abusive. But this is kind of something that has gone on forever and it truly doesn't bother me so it is all about consent in general.