Anonymous
09/03/2015 11:28
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
People who don't believe in god forgive themselves just fine.
Maybe. If you say so. But I'm not convinced that someone who has committed a truly heinous sin or crime -- adultery, robbery, etc. -- can ever find personal peace or redemption without the love of God intervening.
If you don't believe in an invisible supernatural being, then receiving "redemption" from the being is immaterial. Plus, statistically, non-believers are much less likely to commit heinous crimes for which forgiveness is thought to be needed.
It's not immaterial when the guilt, consequences of the action, etc. eat away at you for the rest of your life. And they will, if not properly dealt with. And as to your statistic... where in the world did you get that? I don't believe that one for a minute, sorry!
You don't believe that for one minute? Even without evidence, a generalized assertion of mathematical statistics a lot more believable than the assertion of a supernatural creator. Anyway, here are the statistics:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/16/what-percentage-of-prisoners-are-atheists-its-a-lot-smaller-than-we-ever-imagined/
Atheists make up 0.07% of the prison population, but 2.8% of the general population. Logic follows then, that atheists are less likely to commit heinous crimes.
I also find the concept of vicarious redemption entirely immoral - the Christian concept that as long as you accept Jesus as your savior, your sins are forgiven. You don't have to do anything other than accept Jesus, that's the one and only criterion for redemption. Your debts and guilt are then absolved and forgiven because Jesus has suffered the punishment for you. That's immoral and entirely contrary to the concept of personal responsibility. This is why Atheists are less likely to perform immoral acts because they don't subscribe to the belief that your guilt, conscience, and burden of being a good person can be transferred to someone else. There is no excuse, no scapegoating, no numbing comfort from a fictional book read back in soothing tone by someone who's primary goal is to keep up the illusion and increase his flock.
Crimes that take people to prison are the not the only heinous crimes. There are also issues of sin, which may not be illegal but are still immoral and require forgiveness, both from self and others, often.
And I don't know where you, as an atheist, are getting your Christian doctrine, but you are incorrect in that as well. No one, including Jesus and the Bible, ever said that the "one and only criteria" for redemption is accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. That may be the only requirement for SALVATION, but that is a separate thing.
Anonymous
09/03/2015 09:45
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
People who don't believe in god forgive themselves just fine.
Maybe. If you say so. But I'm not convinced that someone who has committed a truly heinous sin or crime -- adultery, robbery, etc. -- can ever find personal peace or redemption without the love of God intervening.
If you don't believe in an invisible supernatural being, then receiving "redemption" from the being is immaterial. Plus, statistically, non-believers are much less likely to commit heinous crimes for which forgiveness is thought to be needed.
It's not immaterial when the guilt, consequences of the action, etc. eat away at you for the rest of your life. And they will, if not properly dealt with. And as to your statistic... where in the world did you get that? I don't believe that one for a minute, sorry!
You don't believe that for one minute? Even without evidence, a generalized assertion of mathematical statistics a lot more believable than the assertion of a supernatural creator. Anyway, here are the statistics:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/16/what-percentage-of-prisoners-are-atheists-its-a-lot-smaller-than-we-ever-imagined/
Atheists make up 0.07% of the prison population, but 2.8% of the general population. Logic follows then, that atheists are less likely to commit heinous crimes.
I also find the concept of vicarious redemption entirely immoral - the Christian concept that as long as you accept Jesus as your savior, your sins are forgiven. You don't have to do anything other than accept Jesus, that's the one and only criterion for redemption. Your debts and guilt are then absolved and forgiven because Jesus has suffered the punishment for you. That's immoral and entirely contrary to the concept of personal responsibility. This is why Atheists are less likely to perform immoral acts because they don't subscribe to the belief that your guilt, conscience, and burden of being a good person can be transferred to someone else. There is no excuse, no scapegoating, no numbing comfort from a fictional book read back in soothing tone by someone who's primary goal is to keep up the illusion and increase his flock.
Anonymous
09/02/2015 22:09
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Catholic raised turned Agnostic here:
the idea of God's forgiveness is that if you are truly sorry for your sins and ask God's forgiveness, he will grant it. Yes it is quite convenient but it only works if you are truly sorry. That is the big question. Is Sam sorry that he did it or sorry that he was caught. Only Sam (and God) know.
I guess that means you can get off the hook for virtually anything.
Yes and no. I don't believe God ever views any of us as truly irredeemable, no matter what kinds of terrible things you've done, if you come to truly regret them and repent, God will forgive you. The trick is that you have to genuinely repent, though. You can go through the motions of praying on it and asking God for forgiveness, but if, in your heart, you don't truly regret what you did (and not just regret that there were consequences, but regret the actions regardless of what flowed from them), God will know that and you won't be forgiven.
I can see that...If somebody is truly sorry thought and has actual regret over something they did, usually they carry that with them for the rest of their lives though. In that case I can see god saying "alright this guy REALLY truly felt bad about it, ill let him off the hook." To come out a month after the AM leak and say "hey I'm scott free now! All Is well!" doesn't sound like the guy was truly repentant
Anonymous
09/02/2015 21:59
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
People who don't believe in god forgive themselves just fine.
Maybe. If you say so. But I'm not convinced that someone who has committed a truly heinous sin or crime -- adultery, robbery, etc. -- can ever find personal peace or redemption without the love of God intervening.
If you don't believe in an invisible supernatural being, then receiving "redemption" from the being is immaterial. Plus, statistically, non-believers are much less likely to commit heinous crimes for which forgiveness is thought to be needed.
It's not immaterial when the guilt, consequences of the action, etc. eat away at you for the rest of your life. And they will, if not properly dealt with. And as to your statistic... where in the world did you get that? I don't believe that one for a minute, sorry!
Anonymous
09/02/2015 20:05
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
People who don't believe in god forgive themselves just fine.
Maybe. If you say so. But I'm not convinced that someone who has committed a truly heinous sin or crime -- adultery, robbery, etc. -- can ever find personal peace or redemption without the love of God intervening.
If you don't believe in an invisible supernatural being, then receiving "redemption" from the being is immaterial. Plus, statistically, non-believers are much less likely to commit heinous crimes for which forgiveness is thought to be needed.
Anonymous
09/02/2015 20:04
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
People who don't believe in god forgive themselves just fine.
Maybe. If you say so. But I'm not convinced that someone who has committed a truly heinous sin or crime -- adultery, robbery, etc. -- can ever find personal peace or redemption without the love of God intervening.
If you don't believe in an invisible supernatural being, then receiving "redemption" from the being is immaterial. Plus, statistically, non-believers are much less likely to commit heinous crimes for which forgiveness is thought to be needed.
Anonymous
09/02/2015 18:33
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
People who don't believe in god forgive themselves just fine.
Maybe. If you say so. But I'm not convinced that someone who has committed a truly heinous sin or crime -- adultery, robbery, etc. -- can ever find personal peace or redemption without the love of God intervening.
Anonymous
09/02/2015 18:29
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
If you ask God for forgiveness, you are forgiven.
Anonymous
09/02/2015 17:55
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
People who don't believe in god forgive themselves just fine.
Anonymous
09/02/2015 15:17
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Don't you think it's really about personal responsibility? Why do you need God to forgive you for something you did that you know is wrong? Why don't you accept that you did something wrong, and work to be better? Why not forgive yourself and move forward to being a better person?
What exactly do you need God's forgiveness for?
We also need God's forgiveness before we can really forgive ourselves.
Anonymous
09/01/2015 22:26
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why are we arguing the fine detailed points of what it takes for God to forgive? I thought the emerging thought is that all paths are valid? So if Islam is as valid a path to God as Hinduism and Christianity, the manner in which God would forgive you is a rather unimportant detail, is it not?
"Emerging thought" is not church doctrine. It might make you feel good for a while, here on earth, but it won't get you into heaven.
Oh but it's argued precisely in another thread that the concept of "all paths are valid" was indeed mainstream Christian church doctrine.
that doesn't make it accurate. Lots are things are "argued in threads" here. Besides if "all paths were valid" it means that secular humanists and atheists and agnostics who do not believe in god would have access to a heaven that they don't even believe exists. That doesn't make any sense. DO you really think they are going to end up in heaven with some god who says "I know you didn't believe in me, but all paths are valid, so here you are!"
Also, Chruches would go out of business pretty fast, if people thought they could get to heaven without keeping up their pledges.
Anonymous
09/01/2015 15:43
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why are we arguing the fine detailed points of what it takes for God to forgive? I thought the emerging thought is that all paths are valid? So if Islam is as valid a path to God as Hinduism and Christianity, the manner in which God would forgive you is a rather unimportant detail, is it not?
"Emerging thought" is not church doctrine. It might make you feel good for a while, here on earth, but it won't get you into heaven.
Oh but it's argued precisely in another thread that the concept of "all paths are valid" was indeed mainstream Christian church doctrine.
Anonymous
09/01/2015 15:35
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Because of grace it's a given.
Anonymous
09/01/2015 15:32
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Anonymous wrote:Why are we arguing the fine detailed points of what it takes for God to forgive? I thought the emerging thought is that all paths are valid? So if Islam is as valid a path to God as Hinduism and Christianity, the manner in which God would forgive you is a rather unimportant detail, is it not?
"Emerging thought" is not church doctrine. It might make you feel good for a while, here on earth, but it won't get you into heaven.
Anonymous
09/01/2015 15:15
Subject: How do you know if God has forgiven you?
Why are we arguing the fine detailed points of what it takes for God to forgive? I thought the emerging thought is that all paths are valid? So if Islam is as valid a path to God as Hinduism and Christianity, the manner in which God would forgive you is a rather unimportant detail, is it not?