I don't think it's necessary or fair to say anyone is having a childish persona on here. Maybe I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but who had a childish persona here?

I have not read Muslima's threads so I can't validate or stand in defense of her posts everywhere. I won't assume she's here on this thread unless she identifies herself. I don't see the point anyway, since we should be addressing substantive points in posts, not necessarily the people who write them.

If she wrote that Muslims see Christians and Jews as "equals" that is partially correct. In Islam, that is precisely how Muslims SHOULD view Christians and Jews. The proof of this is in these TWO Quranic verses:

In Surah Baqarah: "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

And particularly in Surah Baqarah 2:136: "Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

HOWEVER, we know that many Muslims don't see Christians and Jews as equals and that is their failing. We needn't concern ourselves with those who do wrong deeds. If we concern ourselves with only those who misinterpret different faiths, we will fail to see the similarities between faith, which is more important.

13:51. I came off as pretty brusque and maybe I should explain.

I do respect the religion. And that's precisely why I want to see it presented in a mature and honest light. I have Muslim friends, and in fact I'm leaving in 2 days to stay with one of them for several days, at her house. My discussions with my Muslim friends never go the way discussions with Muslims on DCUM seem to go.

I do think some of DCUM's Muslim posters do a real disservice to their religion by adopting childish personas (perhaps because they feel on the defensive) and by not presenting their religion honestly. The Birmingham manuscript thread where Muslima or somebody else claimed that Muslims see Christians and Jews as complete "equals" being only the most recent example in a long history of examples.

So, in fact, I'm tired of it. I've started to call out the misrepresentations and the unprovoked snark.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Now you are being disingenuous.

Because this has no relevance when it comes to matters of legal/civil marriage (which Muslims most certainly take advantage of, and rightfully so). Are you married? So you only had an Islamic marriage, and are not married when it comes to matters of the law? You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?

Dear Muslima,
Cut the snark and insults (you only lose credibility) and stop digressing (the topic, obv., is marriage within Islam).
Sincerely,
A different poster

Why are you calling that poster Muslima when she has not identified as such?

Muslima was always vehemently in support of her islamic faith and, because she identified herself as a Muslim, she's out for her blood….and thats why.

OMG shut up. Go watch Duck Dynasty or Maury or something

+1. Top PP is, in fact, snarky and off-topic. It shouldn't be a matter of religious bigotry to point out bad behavior.

Also, Muslima is often snarky and she does go off-topic when it suits her better than sticking with the topic. The confusion is understandable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ditto. And polygamy (or polygyny, or polyandry) are actually forbidden in Islam, *except* under fairly specific and strict circumstances. Muslims ignore those circumstances all the time, and bend the rules in certain countries. Besides - pp is talking about religious, vs. civil marriage - the two are not the same.

As long as consenting adults make their own decisions without harming another individual, then I don't really care what people decide to do, to be happy in their lives.

You are being disingenuous. Polyandry is not even discussed in Islam. Polygyny is allowed without restrictions except on number and equal provision for each. It is most certainly not forbidden.

Also, Islam doesn't have a distinction between civil and religious marriage, all marriages in Islam are religious. No nikah = no marriage.

Now you are being disingenuous.

Because this has no relevance when it comes to matters of legal/civil marriage (which Muslims most certainly take advantage of, and rightfully so). Are you married? So you only had an Islamic marriage, and are not married when it comes to matters of the law? You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?

Dear Muslima,
Cut the snark and insults (you only lose credibility) and stop digressing (the topic, obv., is marriage within Islam).
Sincerely,
A different poster

Why are you calling that poster Muslima when she has not identified as such?

Muslima was always vehemently in support of her islamic faith and, because she identified herself as a Muslim, she's out for her blood….and thats why.

OMG shut up. Go watch Duck Dynasty or Maury or something

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, not a Muslim, but I have a theory: Like everyone else, American Muslims are the product of the American society in which they live and that society has swung big time to acceptance of gay marriage. As a group that probably feels pretty marginalized at times, they probably sympathize with groups that have suffered marginalization in the past.

The OT is pretty clear on homosexuality as well, but plenty of American Jews and Christians support gay marriage.

For the record, Christians follow the new testament.

no, the BIBLE is both the old and new testament.

Practicing Muslim here. This is how I interpret it from the Quran (please forgive me, as this is how I interpret it. I'm no scholar.)

In the story of Prophet Lot (story of Sodom and Gomorrah), the prophet had warned his people of "immorality" for their homosexuality. Rather than obeying him, the people of Lot tried to remove their prophet from the city and tried to abuse the angels that came down to Lot as men. As the story goes, God destroyed the people of Lot with a natural disaster. God saved Lot and some of his believers.

The question is though, did God destroy the city because the people were gay? Or did he destroy the city because they attacked Lot and angels?

I don't think the Quran is clear about that.


As for the 42%, I wonder the demographics of that survey. I mean I support same sex marriage, but I'v heard my husband's aunt call it a disease, and other muslims say some quack things.

For those of you who answered that are American Muslims, I was interested in HOW you came to support same sex marriage, not necessarily whether you do, given the clear prohibition in the Quran. If you are not a practicing Muslim, then I can understand you would come to the conclusion of supporting same sex marriage. However, if you are a practicing Muslim, how on earth do you stand in contradiction to the clear prohibition in the Quran?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ditto. And polygamy (or polygyny, or polyandry) are actually forbidden in Islam, *except* under fairly specific and strict circumstances. Muslims ignore those circumstances all the time, and bend the rules in certain countries. Besides - pp is talking about religious, vs. civil marriage - the two are not the same.

As long as consenting adults make their own decisions without harming another individual, then I don't really care what people decide to do, to be happy in their lives.

You are being disingenuous. Polyandry is not even discussed in Islam. Polygyny is allowed without restrictions except on number and equal provision for each. It is most certainly not forbidden.

Also, Islam doesn't have a distinction between civil and religious marriage, all marriages in Islam are religious. No nikah = no marriage.

Now you are being disingenuous.

Because this has no relevance when it comes to matters of legal/civil marriage (which Muslims most certainly take advantage of, and rightfully so). Are you married? So you only had an Islamic marriage, and are not married when it comes to matters of the law? You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?

Dear Muslima,
Cut the snark and insults (you only lose credibility) and stop digressing (the topic, obv., is marriage within Islam).
Sincerely,
A different poster

Why are you calling that poster Muslima when she has not identified as such?

Muslima was always vehemently in support of her islamic faith and, because she identified herself as a Muslim, she's out for her blood….and thats why.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, not a Muslim, but I have a theory: Like everyone else, American Muslims are the product of the American society in which they live and that society has swung big time to acceptance of gay marriage. As a group that probably feels pretty marginalized at times, they probably sympathize with groups that have suffered marginalization in the past.

The OT is pretty clear on homosexuality as well, but plenty of American Jews and Christians support gay marriage.

For the record, Christians follow the new testament.

And Jesus is not recorded as saying anything about LGBT. The Apostle Paul did write about this, but Paul was doing his best to interpret Jesus on things ranging from circumcision to welcoming new members. Interpretation doesn't carry the same authority/weight as Jesus' actual sayings.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sodomy is a sin. So if 2 gays can live in celibacy, it could work

So gays who only have oral sex, or lesbians that do not engage in anal penetration should be allowed to marry?

And straight couples who engage in anal sex should have their marriages annulled?

Please explain how you think this should be enforced.

Actually, Hebrews 13:4 states that the "marriage bed is undefiled", so having anal sex with your spouse isn't an issue as long as both agree and no one else is involved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sodomy is a sin. So if 2 gays can live in celibacy, it could work

So gays who only have oral sex, or lesbians that do not engage in anal penetration should be allowed to marry?

And straight couples who engage in anal sex should have their marriages annulled?

Please explain how you think this should be enforced.

sorry, but only man and woman can have sex if they are married.
Everyone else is required to abstain. That is the teaching in Judaism, Christianity and Islam

As for how to enforce this, I was hoping to leave something into the imagination

What does abstinence have to do with homosexuality?

So if a gay/lesbian couple abstains completely from anal sex, and all other forms of sex until they are married, you'd support this, right?

Otherwise what tenet are they breaking?

But you hit the nail on the head - there's no way to enforce any of this. So maybe just let people make their own consenting adult decisions, and if it's a "sin," let God/s be the judge of that, and let individuals choose to bear the burdens of their decisions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ditto. And polygamy (or polygyny, or polyandry) are actually forbidden in Islam, *except* under fairly specific and strict circumstances. Muslims ignore those circumstances all the time, and bend the rules in certain countries. Besides - pp is talking about religious, vs. civil marriage - the two are not the same.

As long as consenting adults make their own decisions without harming another individual, then I don't really care what people decide to do, to be happy in their lives.

You are being disingenuous. Polyandry is not even discussed in Islam. Polygyny is allowed without restrictions except on number and equal provision for each. It is most certainly not forbidden.

Also, Islam doesn't have a distinction between civil and religious marriage, all marriages in Islam are religious. No nikah = no marriage.

Now you are being disingenuous.

Because this has no relevance when it comes to matters of legal/civil marriage (which Muslims most certainly take advantage of, and rightfully so). Are you married? So you only had an Islamic marriage, and are not married when it comes to matters of the law? You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?

I've actually had both an Islamic and a civil marriage, but I don't live in an Islamic state. If I did, an Islamic marriage would have sufficed. In an Islamic state, it isn't possible to have a civil marriage without a religious one for Muslims.

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, not a Muslim, but I have a theory: Like everyone else, American Muslims are the product of the American society in which they live and that society has swung big time to acceptance of gay marriage. As a group that probably feels pretty marginalized at times, they probably sympathize with groups that have suffered marginalization in the past.

The OT is pretty clear on homosexuality as well, but plenty of American Jews and Christians support gay marriage.

For the record, Christians follow the new testament.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sodomy is a sin. So if 2 gays can live in celibacy, it could work

So gays who only have oral sex, or lesbians that do not engage in anal penetration should be allowed to marry?

And straight couples who engage in anal sex should have their marriages annulled?

Please explain how you think this should be enforced.

sorry, but only man and woman can have sex if they are married.
Everyone else is required to abstain. That is the teaching in Judaism, Christianity and Islam

As for how to enforce this, I was hoping to leave something into the imagination

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ditto. And polygamy (or polygyny, or polyandry) are actually forbidden in Islam, *except* under fairly specific and strict circumstances. Muslims ignore those circumstances all the time, and bend the rules in certain countries. Besides - pp is talking about religious, vs. civil marriage - the two are not the same.

As long as consenting adults make their own decisions without harming another individual, then I don't really care what people decide to do, to be happy in their lives.

You are being disingenuous. Polyandry is not even discussed in Islam. Polygyny is allowed without restrictions except on number and equal provision for each. It is most certainly not forbidden.

Also, Islam doesn't have a distinction between civil and religious marriage, all marriages in Islam are religious. No nikah = no marriage.

Now you are being disingenuous.

Because this has no relevance when it comes to matters of legal/civil marriage (which Muslims most certainly take advantage of, and rightfully so). Are you married? So you only had an Islamic marriage, and are not married when it comes to matters of the law? You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?

Dear Muslima,
Cut the snark and insults (you only lose credibility) and stop digressing (the topic, obv., is marriage within Islam).
Sincerely,
A different poster

Huh? I'm the pp in your last quote, and I am definitely not Muslima. I am strongly in favor of LGBT rights (as someone who comes from a Muslim background), but am tired of the irrational arguments against it. I've yet to hear one explanation against it, that has any holding when you break it down.