Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I have actually seen this in action growing up. I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood in Queens, NY. My elementary school was about 20/40/40 asian/white/black & hispanic. In 5th grade, I got into an argument with a black kid from a different class. I started it by making fun of his sister, who I actually had a crush on (I'm Irish). We ended up fighting during lunch one day. I was sent home and was allowed to come back the next day. They sent a letter to my parents and essentially gave me a warning. The black kid, who was really more of a quiet guy who kept to himself and who was very smart since he was in the gifted program (like me), got expelled. This was during the middle of the school year.

Later on in HS, I saw the kid again on an opposing basketball team. He remembered me and we actually became friends. But the expulsion had a severe impact on him. After being expelled, he ended up going to an elementary school primarily made up of "troubled youths." No more gifted program. He got into more trouble as he fell in with the wrong crowd. Despite this, according to him at the time, he scored well enough on city-wide HS entrance exams to get into some of the better HSs in NYC ( I didn't), but they would not accept him because of his prior school record. He ended up going to one of the worst HSs in the city (which was his zone school unfortunately). JR year he was busted with weed at his school and they arrested him for possession. He did 6 months time.

I am facebook friends with him now, but from what I can tell, 10 years out of HS, he has multiple kids and doesn't seem to have a stable job. Hes a grown man and made his choices. But still, I wonder sometimes what would have happened if he never got suspended. I have no idea how that impacts a child. Especially while their brains are still developing.

I agree that this sounds egregious to me. However, is it possible that the black boy had committed other offenses at the school previously that you are unaware of? Seeing as schools cannot share info about other students to students, it is possible that you were unaware of the complete situation. Something like this could explain the disparity in punishments. OTOH if he did not have other offenses than he should have received equal punishments.

PP - you are still missing the point and simultaneously demonstrating the thinking that goes along with the disparate treatment. The incident should have been treated as an isolated one. He said they were both in gifted classes and that the black child was quiet. So even if the child had a previous incident, combining it with that fight is wrong and unfair to a child and would not have been done to a white child. One fight should not have, on any level, justified an expulsion.

Again, all I am suggesting is that other parents and students are not privy to all that goes on with a particular student due to privacy laws. From experience, I have seen different classmates of my kid describe the same situation in completely different ways on multiple occasions. Also, from my work experience, I saw how incorrect recollections of particular events were frequently spread around the work force. So, IMHO it is quite possible that one does not have all the facts. OTOH I agree that instances of racism have occurred in our school systems.

^^ This story is so troubling on so many levels. I really feel for the young man who had his opportunities so limited. I think it is important to advocate for your child and communicate. I try to keep very open lines of communication with my DS, so I can understand his behavior and discuss better behavioral options. I wonder if a parent had gotten engaged in this story earlier would it have made a difference? A parent going to the school after the first incident to reinforce that this was a good kid that had been provoked. Any thoughts OP?

I remember being in an "excellent" school in an upper middle class suburb where many of the AA parents assumed because the schools were good they would be good for their kid. The AA kids were treated horribly, and some of the parents were disengaged, because they were overconfident that an excellent school would be enough. In HS several friends from school would spend time at my house, where they would share their problems with teachers. In many cases their own parents couldn't advocate (trusted the teachers more than the kids/were afraid to stir things up). My mom with a group of parents started a parents club to support all of the kids -- it brought some seriously questionable practices (such as tracking by race and limited college counseling for children of color) to light. Surprisingly, in this case, I think it is precisely the respect for authority and teachers, by some AA parents that burned some of the kids. The teacher just "had to be always right and the kid was always wrong." Navigating the exceptions and gray areas are very important. Knowing how to question authority when needed seems to be key to long term success (think Gladwell's Outliers cases of failed geniuses who couldn't get this right).

This is territory that we always are always navigating with our children, regardless of our SES or two parent households.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I have actually seen this in action growing up. I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood in Queens, NY. My elementary school was about 20/40/40 asian/white/black & hispanic. In 5th grade, I got into an argument with a black kid from a different class. I started it by making fun of his sister, who I actually had a crush on (I'm Irish). We ended up fighting during lunch one day. I was sent home and was allowed to come back the next day. They sent a letter to my parents and essentially gave me a warning. The black kid, who was really more of a quiet guy who kept to himself and who was very smart since he was in the gifted program (like me), got expelled. This was during the middle of the school year.

Later on in HS, I saw the kid again on an opposing basketball team. He remembered me and we actually became friends. But the expulsion had a severe impact on him. After being expelled, he ended up going to an elementary school primarily made up of "troubled youths." No more gifted program. He got into more trouble as he fell in with the wrong crowd. Despite this, according to him at the time, he scored well enough on city-wide HS entrance exams to get into some of the better HSs in NYC ( I didn't), but they would not accept him because of his prior school record. He ended up going to one of the worst HSs in the city (which was his zone school unfortunately). JR year he was busted with weed at his school and they arrested him for possession. He did 6 months time.

I am facebook friends with him now, but from what I can tell, 10 years out of HS, he has multiple kids and doesn't seem to have a stable job. Hes a grown man and made his choices. But still, I wonder sometimes what would have happened if he never got suspended. I have no idea how that impacts a child. Especially while their brains are still developing.

I agree that this sounds egregious to me. However, is it possible that the black boy had committed other offenses at the school previously that you are unaware of? Seeing as schools cannot share info about other students to students, it is possible that you were unaware of the complete situation. Something like this could explain the disparity in punishments. OTOH if he did not have other offenses than he should have received equal punishments.

PP - you are still missing the point and simultaneously demonstrating the thinking that goes along with the disparate treatment. The incident should have been treated as an isolated one. He said they were both in gifted classes and that the black child was quiet. So even if the child had a previous incident, combining it with that fight is wrong and unfair to a child and would not have been done to a white child. One fight should not have, on any level, justified an expulsion.

Anonymous wrote:I think what this research shows is that higher-poverty schools tend to rely on punitive discipline rather than behavioral interventions and supports. That's in line with my experience, as parent of a kid with documented diagnoses of ADHD, anxiety, and depression. My kid went to a Title I MS and was suspended from school multiple times, most of those suspensions stemming from behaviors well established by psychologist's reports and in the school's own 504 plan. The approach at such schools seems to stress quarantine of problematic behavior rather than understanding the behavior and addressing it.

I will echo an earlier post: teachers and administrators remain woefully under-trained in understanding how ADHD and other SNs impact on kids' behaviors.

Thank you...somebody with some sense.

I think what this research shows is that higher-poverty schools tend to rely on punitive discipline rather than behavioral interventions and supports. That's in line with my experience, as parent of a kid with documented diagnoses of ADHD, anxiety, and depression. My kid went to a Title I MS and was suspended from school multiple times, most of those suspensions stemming from behaviors well established by psychologist's reports and in the school's own 504 plan. The approach at such schools seems to stress quarantine of problematic behavior rather than understanding the behavior and addressing it.

I will echo an earlier post: teachers and administrators remain woefully under-trained in understanding how ADHD and other SNs impact on kids' behaviors.

Thank you for posting this PP. This story makes me furious as a similar thing happened to a child I know who is 2e. It actually happened in a wealthy school in MCPS, but luckily his parents had enough money to get a lawyer and get the child, who is very bright, back in to school and with an IEP. It has been a few years now and I've heard he's doing very well. It makes me very sad to think of the other students who don't have the resources to fight the system.

Unrelated to my comment above, I heard Gwen Mason from MCPS is going to PG County and I hope she can make a difference there.

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I have actually seen this in action growing up. I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood in Queens, NY. My elementary school was about 20/40/40 asian/white/black & hispanic. In 5th grade, I got into an argument with a black kid from a different class. I started it by making fun of his sister, who I actually had a crush on (I'm Irish). We ended up fighting during lunch one day. I was sent home and was allowed to come back the next day. They sent a letter to my parents and essentially gave me a warning. The black kid, who was really more of a quiet guy who kept to himself and who was very smart since he was in the gifted program (like me), got expelled. This was during the middle of the school year.

Later on in HS, I saw the kid again on an opposing basketball team. He remembered me and we actually became friends. But the expulsion had a severe impact on him. After being expelled, he ended up going to an elementary school primarily made up of "troubled youths." No more gifted program. He got into more trouble as he fell in with the wrong crowd. Despite this, according to him at the time, he scored well enough on city-wide HS entrance exams to get into some of the better HSs in NYC ( I didn't), but they would not accept him because of his prior school record. He ended up going to one of the worst HSs in the city (which was his zone school unfortunately). JR year he was busted with weed at his school and they arrested him for possession. He did 6 months time.

I am facebook friends with him now, but from what I can tell, 10 years out of HS, he has multiple kids and doesn't seem to have a stable job. Hes a grown man and made his choices. But still, I wonder sometimes what would have happened if he never got suspended. I have no idea how that impacts a child. Especially while their brains are still developing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I have actually seen this in action growing up. I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood in Queens, NY. My elementary school was about 20/40/40 asian/white/black & hispanic. In 5th grade, I got into an argument with a black kid from a different class. I started it by making fun of his sister, who I actually had a crush on (I'm Irish). We ended up fighting during lunch one day. I was sent home and was allowed to come back the next day. They sent a letter to my parents and essentially gave me a warning. The black kid, who was really more of a quiet guy who kept to himself and who was very smart since he was in the gifted program (like me), got expelled. This was during the middle of the school year.

Later on in HS, I saw the kid again on an opposing basketball team. He remembered me and we actually became friends. But the expulsion had a severe impact on him. After being expelled, he ended up going to an elementary school primarily made up of "troubled youths." No more gifted program. He got into more trouble as he fell in with the wrong crowd. Despite this, according to him at the time, he scored well enough on city-wide HS entrance exams to get into some of the better HSs in NYC ( I didn't), but they would not accept him because of his prior school record. He ended up going to one of the worst HSs in the city (which was his zone school unfortunately). JR year he was busted with weed at his school and they arrested him for possession. He did 6 months time.

I am facebook friends with him now, but from what I can tell, 10 years out of HS, he has multiple kids and doesn't seem to have a stable job. Hes a grown man and made his choices. But still, I wonder sometimes what would have happened if he never got suspended. I have no idea how that impacts a child. Especially while their brains are still developing.

I agree that this sounds egregious to me. However, is it possible that the black boy had committed other offenses at the school previously that you are unaware of? Seeing as schools cannot share info about other students to students, it is possible that you were unaware of the complete situation. Something like this could explain the disparity in punishments. OTOH if he did not have other offenses than he should have received equal punishments.

PP - That's what unfair treatment is. It can't be explained. Imagine how frustrating it would be to experience directly and watch others experience regularly. It's more than a mere inconvenience.

I remember a case from maybe a year ago, where two middle school girls committed a minor act of graffiti. Not great choices, but also not the worst crime ever committed by a pre-teen. The white girl paid "restitution" and was able to move on. The Black girl's family was not able to pay, and she ended up suspended and in the criminal justice system. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/11/us/school-discipline-to-girls-differs-between-and-within-races.html

Now, the argument can be made that the difference here was about SES and not race, but those are so closely tied in the US that you can't talk about one without the other.

Anonymous wrote:White people bad. Black people good.

Why does unequal treatment of blacks make you feel whites are bad?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Black students are more likely to be punished with suspensions, expulsions or referrals to law enforcement, a phenomenon that helps funnel kids into the criminal justice system. Meanwhile, white kids are more likely to be pushed into special education services or receive medical and psychological treatment for their perceived misbehaviors, according to a study released last week in the journal Sociology of Education."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/racial-disparities-american-schools_55b67572e4b0074ba5a576c1

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-07/ps-swh072215.php

The actual paper is behind a paywall, but from the abstract, it seems to me that the study did not look at kids' discipline by race, but rather schools' and school districts' discipline by racial, ethnic, and economic composition.

In this article, the author examines how school- and district-level racial/ethnic and socioeconomic compositions influence schools’ use of different types of criminalized and medicalized school discipline. Using a large data set containing information on over 60,000 schools in over 6,000 districts, the authors uses multilevel modeling and a group-mean modeling strategy to answer several important questions about school discipline. First, how do school- and district-level racial and ethnic compositions influence criminalized school discipline and medicalization? Second, how do levels of school and district economic disadvantage influence criminalized school discipline and medicalization? Third, how does district-level economic disadvantage moderate the relationship between school racial/ethnic composition and criminalized school discipline and medicalization? The results generally support hypotheses that schools and districts with relatively larger minority and poor populations are more likely to implement criminalized disciplinary policies, including suspensions and expulsion or police referrals or arrests, and less likely to medicalize students through behavioral plans put in place through laws such as Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. However, results from cross-level interaction models suggest that district-level economic disadvantage moderates the influence of school racial composition on criminalized school discipline and medicalization. http://soe.sagepub.com/content/88/3/181

OP here: thanks for the fact check. Doesn't diminish the point or issue. There are more than enough studies that back it up. Also, the treatment spreads from the education system to the justice system since blacks get longer sentences than whites for similar offenses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I have actually seen this in action growing up. I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood in Queens, NY. My elementary school was about 20/40/40 asian/white/black & hispanic. In 5th grade, I got into an argument with a black kid from a different class. I started it by making fun of his sister, who I actually had a crush on (I'm Irish). We ended up fighting during lunch one day. I was sent home and was allowed to come back the next day. They sent a letter to my parents and essentially gave me a warning. The black kid, who was really more of a quiet guy who kept to himself and who was very smart since he was in the gifted program (like me), got expelled. This was during the middle of the school year.

Later on in HS, I saw the kid again on an opposing basketball team. He remembered me and we actually became friends. But the expulsion had a severe impact on him. After being expelled, he ended up going to an elementary school primarily made up of "troubled youths." No more gifted program. He got into more trouble as he fell in with the wrong crowd. Despite this, according to him at the time, he scored well enough on city-wide HS entrance exams to get into some of the better HSs in NYC ( I didn't), but they would not accept him because of his prior school record. He ended up going to one of the worst HSs in the city (which was his zone school unfortunately). JR year he was busted with weed at his school and they arrested him for possession. He did 6 months time.

I am facebook friends with him now, but from what I can tell, 10 years out of HS, he has multiple kids and doesn't seem to have a stable job. Hes a grown man and made his choices. But still, I wonder sometimes what would have happened if he never got suspended. I have no idea how that impacts a child. Especially while their brains are still developing.

I agree that this sounds egregious to me. However, is it possible that the black boy had committed other offenses at the school previously that you are unaware of? Seeing as schools cannot share info about other students to students, it is possible that you were unaware of the complete situation. Something like this could explain the disparity in punishments. OTOH if he did not have other offenses than he should have received equal punishments.

PP - That's what unfair treatment is. It can't be explained. Imagine how frustrating it would be to experience directly and watch others experience regularly. It's more than a mere inconvenience.

Anonymous wrote:White people bad. Black people good.

Slightly shorter PP: I'm completely missing the point.

White people bad. Black people good.

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I have actually seen this in action growing up. I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood in Queens, NY. My elementary school was about 20/40/40 asian/white/black & hispanic. In 5th grade, I got into an argument with a black kid from a different class. I started it by making fun of his sister, who I actually had a crush on (I'm Irish). We ended up fighting during lunch one day. I was sent home and was allowed to come back the next day. They sent a letter to my parents and essentially gave me a warning. The black kid, who was really more of a quiet guy who kept to himself and who was very smart since he was in the gifted program (like me), got expelled. This was during the middle of the school year.

Later on in HS, I saw the kid again on an opposing basketball team. He remembered me and we actually became friends. But the expulsion had a severe impact on him. After being expelled, he ended up going to an elementary school primarily made up of "troubled youths." No more gifted program. He got into more trouble as he fell in with the wrong crowd. Despite this, according to him at the time, he scored well enough on city-wide HS entrance exams to get into some of the better HSs in NYC ( I didn't), but they would not accept him because of his prior school record. He ended up going to one of the worst HSs in the city (which was his zone school unfortunately). JR year he was busted with weed at his school and they arrested him for possession. He did 6 months time.

I am facebook friends with him now, but from what I can tell, 10 years out of HS, he has multiple kids and doesn't seem to have a stable job. Hes a grown man and made his choices. But still, I wonder sometimes what would have happened if he never got suspended. I have no idea how that impacts a child. Especially while their brains are still developing.

I agree that this sounds egregious to me. However, is it possible that the black boy had committed other offenses at the school previously that you are unaware of? Seeing as schools cannot share info about other students to students, it is possible that you were unaware of the complete situation. Something like this could explain the disparity in punishments. OTOH if he did not have other offenses than he should have received equal punishments.

Anonymous wrote:It's because of white people and prejudice that black people don't get married. Then black kids grow up in poor unstable homes without strong male role models causing schools to expell black kids whenever there is a problem.

wow
because white folks don't live together without being married, don't have babies out of wedlock.
I think you wandered onto the wrong board, this is not kkk.com, it's DCUM.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The parents have to consent to therapy and pay for medication. For a variety of reasons, they often either don't or can't. I saw this firsthand as the white parent of an ADHD boy in a DC charter. The parents of Hispanic or black boys with the same issues often were working multiple jobs or odd hours or both. It was/is hard enough for me and my DH to get to all of the therapy and doctor's appointments (ADHD meds are highly regulated and you have to pick up a physical prescription every month). I can only imagine how hard it is for parents working multiple jobs to do it.

I think this plays a role as does the fact that seeking help for problems like ADD is more shunned by Hispanic and Black families. Culturally, I see there is more of the mindset still of they just need a good beating and it will straighten them out and of course that doesn't work.

Yes, I believe that is also true, PP. There were some teachers/aides with whom we dealt who obviously had no training or understanding of special needs and held the attitude that these kids were just "brats.". I spoke to the principal about it and suggested she might want to have all of her school's teachers trained on ADHD and autism. We left shortly after so I don't know if that ever happened. Regardless of race/ethnicity I know well that so much ignorance still exists about these disorders.