Anonymous
Post 05/04/2015 00:42     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:But so what, parents need to encourage more middle schools to be of decent quality, not harping on whether one or the other is Tier 1 or Tier 2. We need more Tier 2's!!

Yeah!! Achieving the tier 2 level is now our goal! Congratulations.


The PP you are mocking is correct. Since MGP controls for starting test scores, you could have an entire city of kids who start smart and learn a ton -- as long as there's a scintilla of variation among the kids, some of the schools will be "tier 2." Given the ranking system, the fact that a good school moved down to tier two actually means that the availability of quality of schools in the city is increasing. Which is indeed the goal.


If you look at the Charter Board, that is just not the way the system usually works.
I challenge you to find one other Middle School that serves a mixed population that has moved from Tier I to Tier 2, or one that has flipped back and forth. Or actually any other middle school, because although someone mentioned EL Haynes, I could not find it.

Here is the statement from the Charter Board
Charter Board Releases 2014 Performance Management Framework (PMF) Results


"This year, 16 elementary/middle schools and six high schools earned Tier 1 status based on their performance during the 2013-14 academic year. Seven schools received this high-performing designation for the first time, while 10 charter schools have been Tier 1 for all four years that the PMF has been in existence. (See chart below for more detail.)

The results this year also show that there are quality charter programs across the city serving a range of students:

The top 10 Tier 1 schools come from almost every part of the district - Wards 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 – and five of them are middle schools."

those are in order of rank
Achievement Prep (has always been Tier I)
Basis PCS (first year, Tier 1)
DC Prep - Edgewood Middle (has always been Tier I)
Friendship PCS - Chamberlain Middle - moved up
Friendship PCS - Woodridge Middle - moved up

"Eight of the top 10 schools serve between 75% and 100% low-income student populations (measured by free and reduced lunch status).
Seven of the top 10 schools serve more than 90% African American student populations.
Just five schools, or fewer than 10% of all rated schools, were rated Tier 3. Most schools rated Tier 3 in previous years have either improved or closed."

Given the population that Latin serves, Latin has always been an anomaly, but this is a big deal, not based on a "scintilla of variation among the kids." Many schools start out Tier I and remain Tier I, and most schools that become Tier I stay Tier I. Latin MS went from 79% out of 100 in 2011 to 59% in 2014 and lost the Tier I status it had always had (you have to have 65%). The high school, which has also always had Tier I status, kept it. The Latin website is quick to point out that the MS is a reward school, but I think there are very few schools on this list of Tier I middle schools that most parents at Latin would send their kids to, and the question remains:

why didn't this cohort of kids learn enough between 2011 and 2014 in Latin MS to improve their DC CAS scores sufficiently to keep their Tier I status? All the top scorers - Deal Basis and Latin had plenty of room for improvement. It was not like everyone scored advanced.... I understand that kids are now staying for high school and not peeling off for private schools, and that is great, so there is no brain drain, but even as the school gets whiter and has fewer Farms kids and higher DC CAS scores less education is going on? I don't think any of these three schools teach to the DC CAS - they just usually provide enough of a good education that the scores take care of themselves, and Basis managed it......

So falling from Tier I to Tier 2 is not typical of any charter school and it is a big deal.
It means that for some reason Washington Latin did not educate these kids enough for their DC CAS scores to improve sufficiently to keep their Title I status. There was definitely room for improvement, improvement was possible, and it did not happen. These are the kids who are now entering the high school.

I don't know whether DCPS measures growth the same way, but we can look at how the kids in 2012 scored in 2014 even though it is much less scientific and they only had two years............



Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 23:48     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
What about a STEM school not having a lab for students to do experiments?

Latin has a lab where students themselves can work in pairs. Hardy does too.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 23:44     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:FWIW, for those of you who have high-ability students, Hardy DOES offer algebra in 7th grade (at least a section of it, not everyone takes it then obviously) as well as a small group of 8th graders taking geometry. By the time Hardy students leave at the end of 8th grade the vast majority of them have taken algebra already. That doesn't seem too shabby to me.


not shabby, just barely acceptable[/quote

What is being achieved by having algebra offered in 5th grade?
By accelerating this much, many students, even those who are talented in math might not totally comprehend every concept.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 23:29     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately, only charter schools have Tiers. But I am glad to hear that some Latin parents are concerned -
EL Haynes parents are concerned, although I guess most Latin parents would be equally or more insulted if Latin is compared to EL Haynes as opposed to Hardy or Basis........But the Latin graph if you look at the school profile of the drop is a pretty stunning image (it is on their 2014 performance report), and the measurement is valid so it matters. As a Latin parent said, it may mean that the caliber of the students accepted has dropped (I guess as it has become more popular the applicant pool is less predictable, although it is now half white and less than 20% FARMS - even lower than Deal)

But it also means that the teachers were not able to help those kids improve their DC CAS scores from 2011 to 2014 - which is more of a problem, because at least in our experience proficient on the DC CAS is a pretty low bar - it measures skills that kids actually absolutely should have by the grades they are in, so at schools like Latin (and Basis too, and I assume Deal) I would not think they would have to study for it because mostly the kids are getting educated enough with the school curriculum that they have that there is no need for DC CAS "prep."

Did Deal and other DCPS schools measure and disclose improvement on the DC CAS year over year somehow, using the same scoring cohorts against each other the way the charter school board did so that the measurement is meaningful? I have heard a lot of crap about IMPACT....but have no clue whether you could compare whether the Deal cohort improved except that you could split it up by year and see whether the same class of 6th graders did better by the time they were in 8th grade........from 2012-2014 (not 2011 because Latin starts in 5th), taking into account turnover it would not nearly be as accurate but it might be as close as we could get if DCPS does not do it themselves. Does anyone know if DCPS did this?

I think it will take us years to figure out what the PARCC scores actually mean in the lower grades since they apparently expect 3rd graders to know how to type, but for MS it should be more accurate.


why the out-of-nowhere EL Haynes putdown?

there was a thread wondering why El Haynes had moved from Tier I to Tier 2 which made me look up Latin - no put down intended sorry
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 23:23     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately, only charter schools have Tiers. But I am glad to hear that some Latin parents are concerned -
EL Haynes parents are concerned, although I guess most Latin parents would be equally or more insulted if Latin is compared to EL Haynes as opposed to Hardy or Basis........But the Latin graph if you look at the school profile of the drop is a pretty stunning image (it is on their 2014 performance report), and the measurement is valid so it matters. As a Latin parent said, it may mean that the caliber of the students accepted has dropped (I guess as it has become more popular the applicant pool is less predictable, although it is now half white and less than 20% FARMS - even lower than Deal)

But it also means that the teachers were not able to help those kids improve their DC CAS scores from 2011 to 2014 - which is more of a problem, because at least in our experience proficient on the DC CAS is a pretty low bar - it measures skills that kids actually absolutely should have by the grades they are in, so at schools like Latin (and Basis too, and I assume Deal) I would not think they would have to study for it because mostly the kids are getting educated enough with the school curriculum that they have that there is no need for DC CAS "prep."

Did Deal and other DCPS schools measure and disclose improvement on the DC CAS year over year somehow, using the same scoring cohorts against each other the way the charter school board did so that the measurement is meaningful? I have heard a lot of crap about IMPACT....but have no clue whether you could compare whether the Deal cohort improved except that you could split it up by year and see whether the same class of 6th graders did better by the time they were in 8th grade........from 2012-2014 (not 2011 because Latin starts in 5th), taking into account turnover it would not nearly be as accurate but it might be as close as we could get if DCPS does not do it themselves. Does anyone know if DCPS did this?

I think it will take us years to figure out what the PARCC scores actually mean in the lower grades since they apparently expect 3rd graders to know how to type, but for MS it should be more accurate.


Honestly. Zzzzzzzz. Can you shorten this?
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 22:03     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately, only charter schools have Tiers. But I am glad to hear that some Latin parents are concerned -
EL Haynes parents are concerned, although I guess most Latin parents would be equally or more insulted if Latin is compared to EL Haynes as opposed to Hardy or Basis........But the Latin graph if you look at the school profile of the drop is a pretty stunning image (it is on their 2014 performance report), and the measurement is valid so it matters. As a Latin parent said, it may mean that the caliber of the students accepted has dropped (I guess as it has become more popular the applicant pool is less predictable, although it is now half white and less than 20% FARMS - even lower than Deal)

But it also means that the teachers were not able to help those kids improve their DC CAS scores from 2011 to 2014 - which is more of a problem, because at least in our experience proficient on the DC CAS is a pretty low bar - it measures skills that kids actually absolutely should have by the grades they are in, so at schools like Latin (and Basis too, and I assume Deal) I would not think they would have to study for it because mostly the kids are getting educated enough with the school curriculum that they have that there is no need for DC CAS "prep."

Did Deal and other DCPS schools measure and disclose improvement on the DC CAS year over year somehow, using the same scoring cohorts against each other the way the charter school board did so that the measurement is meaningful? I have heard a lot of crap about IMPACT....but have no clue whether you could compare whether the Deal cohort improved except that you could split it up by year and see whether the same class of 6th graders did better by the time they were in 8th grade........from 2012-2014 (not 2011 because Latin starts in 5th), taking into account turnover it would not nearly be as accurate but it might be as close as we could get if DCPS does not do it themselves. Does anyone know if DCPS did this?

I think it will take us years to figure out what the PARCC scores actually mean in the lower grades since they apparently expect 3rd graders to know how to type, but for MS it should be more accurate.


why the out-of-nowhere EL Haynes putdown?
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 21:54     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Unfortunately, only charter schools have Tiers. But I am glad to hear that some Latin parents are concerned -
EL Haynes parents are concerned, although I guess most Latin parents would be equally or more insulted if Latin is compared to EL Haynes as opposed to Hardy or Basis........But the Latin graph if you look at the school profile of the drop is a pretty stunning image (it is on their 2014 performance report), and the measurement is valid so it matters. As a Latin parent said, it may mean that the caliber of the students accepted has dropped (I guess as it has become more popular the applicant pool is less predictable, although it is now half white and less than 20% FARMS - even lower than Deal)

But it also means that the teachers were not able to help those kids improve their DC CAS scores from 2011 to 2014 - which is more of a problem, because at least in our experience proficient on the DC CAS is a pretty low bar - it measures skills that kids actually absolutely should have by the grades they are in, so at schools like Latin (and Basis too, and I assume Deal) I would not think they would have to study for it because mostly the kids are getting educated enough with the school curriculum that they have that there is no need for DC CAS "prep."

Did Deal and other DCPS schools measure and disclose improvement on the DC CAS year over year somehow, using the same scoring cohorts against each other the way the charter school board did so that the measurement is meaningful? I have heard a lot of crap about IMPACT....but have no clue whether you could compare whether the Deal cohort improved except that you could split it up by year and see whether the same class of 6th graders did better by the time they were in 8th grade........from 2012-2014 (not 2011 because Latin starts in 5th), taking into account turnover it would not nearly be as accurate but it might be as close as we could get if DCPS does not do it themselves. Does anyone know if DCPS did this?

I think it will take us years to figure out what the PARCC scores actually mean in the lower grades since they apparently expect 3rd graders to know how to type, but for MS it should be more accurate.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 21:30     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:FWIW, for those of you who have high-ability students, Hardy DOES offer algebra in 7th grade (at least a section of it, not everyone takes it then obviously) as well as a small group of 8th graders taking geometry. By the time Hardy students leave at the end of 8th grade the vast majority of them have taken algebra already. That doesn't seem too shabby to me.


Yeah, unfortunately for the Latin cultists, Hardy IS comparable to their object of devotion. You will see that even more clearly once this year's test scores come out. But so what, parents need to encourage more middle schools to be of decent quality, not harping on whether one or the other is Tier 1 or Tier 2. We need more Tier 2's!!

Yeah!! Achieving the tier 2 level is now our goal! Congratulations.


The PP you are mocking is correct. Since MGP controls for starting test scores, you could have an entire city of kids who start smart and learn a ton -- as long as there's a scintilla of variation among the kids, some of the schools will be "tier 2." Given the ranking system, the fact that a good school moved down to tier two actually means that the availability of quality of schools in the city is increasing. Which is indeed the goal.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 20:47     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:FWIW, for those of you who have high-ability students, Hardy DOES offer algebra in 7th grade (at least a section of it, not everyone takes it then obviously) as well as a small group of 8th graders taking geometry. By the time Hardy students leave at the end of 8th grade the vast majority of them have taken algebra already. That doesn't seem too shabby to me.


Yeah, unfortunately for the Latin cultists, Hardy IS comparable to their object of devotion. You will see that even more clearly once this year's test scores come out. But so what, parents need to encourage more middle schools to be of decent quality, not harping on whether one or the other is Tier 1 or Tier 2. We need more Tier 2's!!

Yeah!! Achieving the tier 2 level is now our goal! Congratulations.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 20:41     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:FWIW, for those of you who have high-ability students, Hardy DOES offer algebra in 7th grade (at least a section of it, not everyone takes it then obviously) as well as a small group of 8th graders taking geometry. By the time Hardy students leave at the end of 8th grade the vast majority of them have taken algebra already. That doesn't seem too shabby to me.


Yeah, unfortunately for the Latin cultists, Hardy IS comparable to their object of devotion. You will see that even more clearly once this year's test scores come out. But so what, parents need to encourage more middle schools to be of decent quality, not harping on whether one or the other is Tier 1 or Tier 2. We need more Tier 2's!!
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 20:37     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:FWIW, for those of you who have high-ability students, Hardy DOES offer algebra in 7th grade (at least a section of it, not everyone takes it then obviously) as well as a small group of 8th graders taking geometry. By the time Hardy students leave at the end of 8th grade the vast majority of them have taken algebra already. That doesn't seem too shabby to me.


not shabby, just barely acceptable
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 19:37     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
FWIW, for those of you who have high-ability students, Hardy DOES offer algebra in 7th grade (at least a section of it, not everyone takes it then obviously) as well as a small group of 8th graders taking geometry. By the time Hardy students leave at the end of 8th grade the vast majority of them have taken algebra already. That doesn't seem too shabby to me.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 19:30     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
PP, thanks for answering and acknowledging the concern rather than ridiculing Hardy
I think the PARCC may actually measure critical thinking better than the DC CAS,
I really appreciate parents like you who realize how lucky they are to get their kids into Latin and are nice about it

I would consider raising the issue with the administration and seeing what they say - just because your scores have gone down at the same time that the number of high SES (white) kids in your MS population has gone up dramatically and your FARMS population has gone down - and these are supposed to be the magic bullets that created high test scores on the DC CAS automatically - and that is what would concern me as a parent with a kid in the MS at Latin

because on paper if you go by the DCUM mantras - increasing number of white kids and decreasing number of farms kids = high DC CAS scores (which you got),
I don't understand why that would not also translate into the ability to teach those kids well enough to improve their scores on the DC CAS scores as well year over year, and it looks like that is what really cost Latin its Tier I ranking...

do they do any tracking at Latin? Do they have Honors classes like at Deal and Hardy? Do they do "differentiated instruction?"

Sorry don't know all that much about how they go about teaching at Latin MS
and is it really true that all kids have to take Algebra I for 7th and 8th grade?
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 18:23     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
I'm a Latin parent, and while I find the drop concerning---I am not panicking. Charters are mandated to take all comers through the lottery. Some years that may mean a lot of very prepared kids from well-performing elementary schools (those in the Hardy catchment area as well as Capitol Hill) and some years it may mean kids coming from elementary schools that are not as strong. So the "median" level of a class may vary from year to year. Basis is still very new---I could see them having the same level of variation after a few more years of incoming 5th graders of different levels of ability.

Latin also doesn't "drill and kill" for DCCAS the same way DCPS does. Without having children at Deal or Hardy, I do not know whether the MS DCPS has the same DCCAS focus that our DCPS elementary did.

I'm not wed to DCCAS (or PARCC) being the end all /be all. I want critical thinkers---not standardized test-taking automatons. Latin's teachers have done an outstanding job with our kids on the critical thinking front.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2015 13:47     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As others have posted, Latin's MS is Tier 2 because of its low growth score. For example, its median growth percentile in math is 39.8, which is fairly low (the average is 50). However, other posters are incorrect in implying that having high test scores places Latin at a disadvantage in the growth model.

The growth model used in the PMF compares students only to other students with similar prior scores. Crucially, students who are already high-achieving are only compared to others citywide who were also high-achieving in their prior scores. Latin students are doing well on tests. However, these results show that they are not improving as rapidly as other students who are also doing well across DC (at Deal, BASIS, etc.).

Latin's middle school PMF report: http://www.dcpcsb.org/sites/default/files/309_Washington_Latin_PCS_Middle_School.pdf
More information on the growth model: http://www.dcpcsb.org/sites/default/files/data/images/dc%20schoolwide%20growth%20faqs%2010_11.pdf



Thanks for pointing this out, PP. The Latin boosterism on this thread is sweeping an important point under the rug. Latin MS is a Tier 2 school because its students are falling behind their achievement-matched peers., at least as measured by the DCCAS.

Why is this happening? Is the curriculum watered down? Is differentiated instruction not working? Other ideas?


so could some Latin MS parents stop laughing at Hardy and actually answer the questions posed here? Given that they appear to be completely legitimate now......... they ought to matter to you as well as those of us who stand no chance in hell of getting off the waitlist (although this makes me feel a bit better). Is it complacency? Resting on laurels that aren't actually there?

Your school fell to Tier 2 for legitimate reasons, not because the kids were doing so well they could just no longer improve and thus were penalized.

So why do you think this is happening?

It is a huge drop from 2011 to 2014 even if it looks gradual on the graph.

Any guesses? The bad grade on high school preparedness which was measured by math was only worth 2.5 out of 100 points......... so it can't just be about the math.

It really is about the failure to improve........

Is there differentiated instruction? Are kids who want to be more challenged being challenged? What is up?

I would think that even if you are at a school that everyone wants to be at and think Hardy is laughable (which is mean spirited as well), you ought to want to figure this out just as much if not more than the rest of us.........