To the whiny mother:

This not the thread for you to play martyr and bellyache about your daughter. Considering how negative, complaining, and self-pitying you have shown yourself to be in just two posts, I feel sorry for your daughter to have to deal with you.

Anonymous wrote:
I know it's very unpopular and hard to hear but I would again implore women to be honest and look back at the situations and really consider if maybe, just maybe, yes, there was some element in their own personality that made them overly sensitive. As an adult, if you hear this from a parent, take some time and really consider it. It might be that you were hearing things in a critical tone that simply was not there. Of course, this doesn't apply to every single woman and yes of course narcissistic mothers exist but as pointed out by a pp, it occurs far less than thought.

Again, this isn't helpful for this thread. I'm the one whose father would say things like "Stop shitting on me, you little shit." As an adult, I'll call him on it, and he'll tell me that I'm being too sensitive and reading things into it that aren't there, and that I should stop assuming the worst of him and everyone around me. I don't have these kinds of interactions with emotionally healthy people. Your words aren't "hard to hear" because they're hitting on an element of a truth, but because they're triggering for those who have dealt with this kind of thing in the past.

There's a huge difference in saying things about people being narcissistic (everyone is, to some extent), and saying that it's hard to deal with someone who fits the profile of someone with NPD to a T.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I pretty much know that you are my own DD in the future.

The thing is I am not a narcissistic mother. My DD is overly sensitive and has severe anxiety. My DD sees and hears almost everything in a critical way. This has been going on since she was pretty much a toddler and she is now 11. It's a personality trait. It can't be "fixed", it can only be managed and that management won't come until she is older and can recognize and think through situations. My DD started seeing a therapist at age 6 and continues to see one. The therapist helps my DD reframe situations in her mind. It is very slowly helping but will take until adult hood likely for her to really be able to do this consistently on her own. Medication for the anxiety helps a bit but not as much as you think and it's tricky giving anxiety meds to a kid long term.

Here is an example of what my DD would say was critical. She was about to go outside and put on black patent leather mary jane shoes. It was muddy and she planned to play in her friend's backyard. I said in a very even, normal tone "Please change your shoes. Those won't work for the backyard because it's so muddy." My DD looked absolutely crestfallen because she sees it as a criticism of her choice and something she has done wrong. Neither is true and pointing that out won't help. As a mother, seeing almost anything you say taken as criticism by your child and worrying how to best frame every single situation and every single word is absolutely emotionally draining. It really sucks some days and yes, there are days when I lose my patience. In fact, I had to start going to therapy because I really did believe I was a horrible person. She is our only child but I imagine this situation when a mom has multiple kids must be even more difficult.

I think you and many other women who post on these type of threads often fail to realize that they too might actually be or had been overly sensitive and how incredibly emotionally draining it can be to deal with as a mother over the course of a childhood to young adulthood. This is not something I would have understood myself until now that I am in the thick of it.

PP here, and I can speak to this. I am highly sensitive, and so is my DS. I also have a mom that is BPD/NPD. I completely understand how draining it can be to have a child that falls to pieces with shame over mistakes. If you read the books that address highly sensitive kids, you will learn that they tend to go to shame first (I'm bad) rather than guilt (I did something bad). They care a lot, are very conscientious, and the shame is hard for them to bear.

Interestingly, you did not include in your story what your reaction was to the crestfallen DD, only your conclusion that nothing would help (and what a burden this is on you). Here's how I would talk about the same issue:

"My DS is so sensitive, and I recognize that he feels more, and feels it faster, than most people. It completely overwhelms him. I'm the same way, and once I get sparked, it can be very hard to calm down or re-gain perspective. So instead I try to prevent him from getting overwhelmed -- predictable schedules, not too many activities, and a lot of mirroring when he starts acting out of sorts. I accept that he's not going to usually have a good reaction to a new thing (like an amusement park), even if other kids would be elated. I also talk to him about the feeling of shame when I see that he's stuck in it. It helps him to be able to get the feedback on what is going on inside him. I wish someone had done that for me, instead of labeling me as a pain in the ass."

I don't blame my mom for my sensitivity -- heck, I'm sensitive around everyone, not just her. But she used me to meet her needs and disregarded my needs when they were inconvenient -- physical, emotional, safety, etc. That's a different ballpark. Are you accepting that your sensitive daughter might need things that are different than what you need? That activities with her may have to be circumscribed more than you would otherwise want them to be? That her calibration needs to be respected and taken into account (but not martyred for)? If so, great! -- this will make the difference as to whether she ends up like all of us "women who post on these type of threads." I'm not sure that this came across in your post, though.

I am sure you are well meaning too and I am sure you believe that you are being helpful but the fact is I do that only a daily basis over and over and have for years. Every single situation in our daily lives is set up for that but my DD simply can't overcome the feelings at this point and manage them.

What others are failing to understand is there is truly nothing I can say that is going to make it better. In the situation I described, apologizing isn't helpful. Saying it again isn't helpful. Per both therapists, I am not to apologize for making simple, direct, statements like this. Doing so, doesn't help the situation and in some ways makes it worse because then my DD begins to feel bad that she made me feel bad because she hears me say "I am sorry " or "I apologize".

And yes of course, I do have anxiety over this because I walk around on egg shells in an attempt to avoid hurting her.

And the therapists have both told me that this is a long road and yes, she will likely blame me for many things and feel as I was critical, mean, etc for a long time. As an adult, the hope is she will be better able to cope because all the work being done now in therapy will have given her a foundation to build on.

I know it's very unpopular and hard to hear but I would again implore women to be honest and look back at the situations and really consider if maybe, just maybe, yes, there was some element in their own personality that made them overly sensitive. As an adult, if you hear this from a parent, take some time and really consider it. It might be that you were hearing things in a critical tone that simply was not there. Of course, this doesn't apply to every single woman and yes of course narcissistic mothers exist but as pointed out by a pp, it occurs far less than thought.

Anonymous wrote:I pretty much know that you are my own DD in the future.

The thing is I am not a narcissistic mother. My DD is overly sensitive and has severe anxiety. My DD sees and hears almost everything in a critical way. This has been going on since she was pretty much a toddler and she is now 11. It's a personality trait. It can't be "fixed", it can only be managed and that management won't come until she is older and can recognize and think through situations. My DD started seeing a therapist at age 6 and continues to see one. The therapist helps my DD reframe situations in her mind. It is very slowly helping but will take until adult hood likely for her to really be able to do this consistently on her own. Medication for the anxiety helps a bit but not as much as you think and it's tricky giving anxiety meds to a kid long term.

Here is an example of what my DD would say was critical. She was about to go outside and put on black patent leather mary jane shoes. It was muddy and she planned to play in her friend's backyard. I said in a very even, normal tone "Please change your shoes. Those won't work for the backyard because it's so muddy." My DD looked absolutely crestfallen because she sees it as a criticism of her choice and something she has done wrong. Neither is true and pointing that out won't help. As a mother, seeing almost anything you say taken as criticism by your child and worrying how to best frame every single situation and every single word is absolutely emotionally draining. It really sucks some days and yes, there are days when I lose my patience. In fact, I had to start going to therapy because I really did believe I was a horrible person. She is our only child but I imagine this situation when a mom has multiple kids must be even more difficult.

I think you and many other women who post on these type of threads often fail to realize that they too might actually be or had been overly sensitive and how incredibly emotionally draining it can be to deal with as a mother over the course of a childhood to young adulthood. This is not something I would have understood myself until now that I am in the thick of it.

PP here, and I can speak to this. I am highly sensitive, and so is my DS. I also have a mom that is BPD/NPD. I completely understand how draining it can be to have a child that falls to pieces with shame over mistakes. If you read the books that address highly sensitive kids, you will learn that they tend to go to shame first (I'm bad) rather than guilt (I did something bad). They care a lot, are very conscientious, and the shame is hard for them to bear.

Interestingly, you did not include in your story what your reaction was to the crestfallen DD, only your conclusion that nothing would help (and what a burden this is on you). Here's how I would talk about the same issue:

"My DS is so sensitive, and I recognize that he feels more, and feels it faster, than most people. It completely overwhelms him. I'm the same way, and once I get sparked, it can be very hard to calm down or re-gain perspective. So instead I try to prevent him from getting overwhelmed -- predictable schedules, not too many activities, and a lot of mirroring when he starts acting out of sorts. I accept that he's not going to usually have a good reaction to a new thing (like an amusement park), even if other kids would be elated. I also talk to him about the feeling of shame when I see that he's stuck in it. It helps him to be able to get the feedback on what is going on inside him. I wish someone had done that for me, instead of labeling me as a pain in the ass."

I don't blame my mom for my sensitivity -- heck, I'm sensitive around everyone, not just her. But she used me to meet her needs and disregarded my needs when they were inconvenient -- physical, emotional, safety, etc. That's a different ballpark. Are you accepting that your sensitive daughter might need things that are different than what you need? That activities with her may have to be circumscribed more than you would otherwise want them to be? That her calibration needs to be respected and taken into account (but not martyred for)? If so, great! -- this will make the difference as to whether she ends up like all of us "women who post on these type of threads." I'm not sure that this came across in your post, though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have heard this term come up a lot here and always dismissed it as not my mother. I read an article with a checklist someone posted about signs your mother is a narcissistic mother and she checked off so many I stopped reading. I finally started reading the book 'Will I ever be good enough?' by Karyl McBride and it is alarming how much of it is dead on.

I just started reading this so I am not very far in. Curious for others who have read this or recognized this in their mother, how did it impact things for you? How is your relationship with your mother now?
How is your relationship with yourself now?

I feel like I have spent my whole life walking around feeling like I was the only one and suddenly my eyes have opened and I found out I am not.

I own the book also. It's devestating to realize you will never have the mother you want: caring, loving, kind, and concerned with your well-being. For too long, as with any abusive dynamic, I truly felt as though I was fatally flawed, and if only I were thinner/prettier/more successful/more interesting my mother would finally love me the way I'd always wanted and needed to be loved. Of course, no day like this came. If I was down on my luck, my mother would se to take some sort of perverse pleasure in that and/ or pile on. If I was riding high, my mother would make subtle commments to disparage me and my situation, or somehow compare herself (favorably) to me.

It took a long time to reaalize this unhealthy dynamic - she's my mom, and this is how I was raised, so for me it was normal to be constantly criticized, belittled, demeaned, or otherwise ignored. Having a daughter of my own is what it took for me to see how truly deranged she was and is.

I no longer have any sort of contact or relationship with her.

I'm sorry, OP. Good luck on your journey.

I pretty much know that you are my own DD in the future.

The thing is I am not a narcissistic mother. My DD is overly sensitive and has severe anxiety. My DD sees and hears almost everything in a critical way. This has been going on since she was pretty much a toddler and she is now 11. It's a personality trait. It can't be "fixed", it can only be managed and that management won't come until she is older and can recognize and think through situations. My DD started seeing a therapist at age 6 and continues to see one. The therapist helps my DD reframe situations in her mind. It is very slowly helping but will take until adult hood likely for her to really be able to do this consistently on her own. Medication for the anxiety helps a bit but not as much as you think and it's tricky giving anxiety meds to a kid long term.

Here is an example of what my DD would say was critical. She was about to go outside and put on black patent leather mary jane shoes. It was muddy and she planned to play in her friend's backyard. I said in a very even, normal tone "Please change your shoes. Those won't work for the backyard because it's so muddy." My DD looked absolutely crestfallen because she sees it as a criticism of her choice and something she has done wrong. Neither is true and pointing that out won't help. As a mother, seeing almost anything you say taken as criticism by your child and worrying how to best frame every single situation and every single word is absolutely emotionally draining. It really sucks some days and yes, there are days when I lose my patience. In fact, I had to start going to therapy because I really did believe I was a horrible person. She is our only child but I imagine this situation when a mom has multiple kids must be even more difficult.

I think you and many other women who post on these type of threads often fail to realize that they too might actually be or had been overly sensitive and how incredibly emotionally draining it can be to deal with as a mother over the course of a childhood to young adulthood. This is not something I would have understood myself until now that I am in the thick of it.

I'm sure that you're well-intentioned, but this isn't helpful. Like a PP, I didn't realize how bad it was until I had my own children and realized that a lot of the things that my NPD/alcoholic father did and said are things that I could never imagine doing or saying to my own children. "Please change your shoes. Those won't work in the back yard because it's so muddy" is on a completely different level than "You're a little shit who keeps shitting on me." I am not perfect, but there is no reason for talking like that.

OP, you asked how cutting ties with our mothers affected our relationship with other family members. In my case, it was my dad - as I mentioned above - and I haven't clearly cut ties. I've set very reasonable boundaries and enforced them, and he largely will not talk to me anymore because I "will not accept his true self", and he completely blames me for the dissolution of our relationship. I send him occasional updates that he either ignores or uses as a chance to insult me for cutting him out of our lives. I think I'm only really doing this out of a sense of guilt and obligation, and keep wondering if I should stop.

My mother and brother both understand. (My parents are divorced.) Non-immediate family is mixed, but the ones that I am closer to understand.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have heard this term come up a lot here and always dismissed it as not my mother. I read an article with a checklist someone posted about signs your mother is a narcissistic mother and she checked off so many I stopped reading. I finally started reading the book 'Will I ever be good enough?' by Karyl McBride and it is alarming how much of it is dead on.

I just started reading this so I am not very far in. Curious for others who have read this or recognized this in their mother, how did it impact things for you? How is your relationship with your mother now?
How is your relationship with yourself now?

I feel like I have spent my whole life walking around feeling like I was the only one and suddenly my eyes have opened and I found out I am not.

I own the book also. It's devestating to realize you will never have the mother you want: caring, loving, kind, and concerned with your well-being. For too long, as with any abusive dynamic, I truly felt as though I was fatally flawed, and if only I were thinner/prettier/more successful/more interesting my mother would finally love me the way I'd always wanted and needed to be loved. Of course, no day like this came. If I was down on my luck, my mother would se to take some sort of perverse pleasure in that and/ or pile on. If I was riding high, my mother would make subtle commments to disparage me and my situation, or somehow compare herself (favorably) to me.

It took a long time to reaalize this unhealthy dynamic - she's my mom, and this is how I was raised, so for me it was normal to be constantly criticized, belittled, demeaned, or otherwise ignored. Having a daughter of my own is what it took for me to see how truly deranged she was and is.

I no longer have any sort of contact or relationship with her.

I'm sorry, OP. Good luck on your journey.

I pretty much know that you are my own DD in the future.

The thing is I am not a narcissistic mother. My DD is overly sensitive and has severe anxiety. My DD sees and hears almost everything in a critical way. This has been going on since she was pretty much a toddler and she is now 11. It's a personality trait. It can't be "fixed", it can only be managed and that management won't come until she is older and can recognize and think through situations. My DD started seeing a therapist at age 6 and continues to see one. The therapist helps my DD reframe situations in her mind. It is very slowly helping but will take until adult hood likely for her to really be able to do this consistently on her own. Medication for the anxiety helps a bit but not as much as you think and it's tricky giving anxiety meds to a kid long term.

Here is an example of what my DD would say was critical. She was about to go outside and put on black patent leather mary jane shoes. It was muddy and she planned to play in her friend's backyard. I said in a very even, normal tone "Please change your shoes. Those won't work for the backyard because it's so muddy." My DD looked absolutely crestfallen because she sees it as a criticism of her choice and something she has done wrong. Neither is true and pointing that out won't help. As a mother, seeing almost anything you say taken as criticism by your child and worrying how to best frame every single situation and every single word is absolutely emotionally draining. It really sucks some days and yes, there are days when I lose my patience. In fact, I had to start going to therapy because I really did believe I was a horrible person. She is our only child but I imagine this situation when a mom has multiple kids must be even more difficult.

I think you and many other women who post on these type of threads often fail to realize that they too might actually be or had been overly sensitive and how incredibly emotionally draining it can be to deal with as a mother over the course of a childhood to young adulthood. This is not something I would have understood myself until now that I am in the thick of it.

NP. It's pretty clear you don't understand the subject matter of this thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is how I handle it.

First I had to recognize that it was her, not me. When your mother is like this, you internalize this voice that tells you something is just terribly, inexplicably wrong with you and you aren't good enough in various ways. It hit me like a bolt of lightning one day in my late twenties, that there was nothing so terrible about me. She had been wrong.

Then you have to recognize that she will not change, and then you have to grieve. You have not had and will never have the mother that many others have.

Then you draw very strong boundaries. If you choose to interact, do not confide in her and do not expect any empathy or support from her. Keep everything superficial. Do not let anything she does or say go past your boundaries. Acknowledge that she's going to continue doing and saying things that make you feel bad, but you can learn to handle them.

Finally, become your own loving mother to yourself. Any time you are upset or feel you could use a loving, sympathetic mother's words, speak them to yourself. It's amazing.

PP, this is all very spot on. Thanks for posting.

Yes, this is wonderful. Thanks.

PP, I have my own struggles with my daughter so I am sympathetic. Wanted to say what struck me about your post is that you also seem to be overly sensitive and have anxiety. I also have anxiety so again, I sympathize. I hope that your therapist is working with you on this angle.

How did I conclude this from an internet post? 1) you know that your DD will reject you like a PP's DD. That may be true or it may be catastrophising based on the example you gave about mud and shoes. To me your anxiety or worry, your negative conclusion suggests anxiety and that you are being overly sensitive.

Perhaps there is a two-way feedback loop going on with your child. FWIW

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have heard this term come up a lot here and always dismissed it as not my mother. I read an article with a checklist someone posted about signs your mother is a narcissistic mother and she checked off so many I stopped reading. I finally started reading the book 'Will I ever be good enough?' by Karyl McBride and it is alarming how much of it is dead on.

I just started reading this so I am not very far in. Curious for others who have read this or recognized this in their mother, how did it impact things for you? How is your relationship with your mother now?
How is your relationship with yourself now?

I feel like I have spent my whole life walking around feeling like I was the only one and suddenly my eyes have opened and I found out I am not.

I own the book also. It's devestating to realize you will never have the mother you want: caring, loving, kind, and concerned with your well-being. For too long, as with any abusive dynamic, I truly felt as though I was fatally flawed, and if only I were thinner/prettier/more successful/more interesting my mother would finally love me the way I'd always wanted and needed to be loved. Of course, no day like this came. If I was down on my luck, my mother would se to take some sort of perverse pleasure in that and/ or pile on. If I was riding high, my mother would make subtle commments to disparage me and my situation, or somehow compare herself (favorably) to me.

It took a long time to reaalize this unhealthy dynamic - she's my mom, and this is how I was raised, so for me it was normal to be constantly criticized, belittled, demeaned, or otherwise ignored. Having a daughter of my own is what it took for me to see how truly deranged she was and is.

I no longer have any sort of contact or relationship with her.

I'm sorry, OP. Good luck on your journey.

I pretty much know that you are my own DD in the future.

The thing is I am not a narcissistic mother. My DD is overly sensitive and has severe anxiety. My DD sees and hears almost everything in a critical way. This has been going on since she was pretty much a toddler and she is now 11. It's a personality trait. It can't be "fixed", it can only be managed and that management won't come until she is older and can recognize and think through situations. My DD started seeing a therapist at age 6 and continues to see one. The therapist helps my DD reframe situations in her mind. It is very slowly helping but will take until adult hood likely for her to really be able to do this consistently on her own. Medication for the anxiety helps a bit but not as much as you think and it's tricky giving anxiety meds to a kid long term.

Here is an example of what my DD would say was critical. She was about to go outside and put on black patent leather mary jane shoes. It was muddy and she planned to play in her friend's backyard. I said in a very even, normal tone "Please change your shoes. Those won't work for the backyard because it's so muddy." My DD looked absolutely crestfallen because she sees it as a criticism of her choice and something she has done wrong. Neither is true and pointing that out won't help. As a mother, seeing almost anything you say taken as criticism by your child and worrying how to best frame every single situation and every single word is absolutely emotionally draining. It really sucks some days and yes, there are days when I lose my patience. In fact, I had to start going to therapy because I really did believe I was a horrible person. She is our only child but I imagine this situation when a mom has multiple kids must be even more difficult.

I think you and many other women who post on these type of threads often fail to realize that they too might actually be or had been overly sensitive and how incredibly emotionally draining it can be to deal with as a mother over the course of a childhood to young adulthood. This is not something I would have understood myself until now that I am in the thick of it.

Anonymous wrote:Here is how I handle it.

First I had to recognize that it was her, not me. When your mother is like this, you internalize this voice that tells you something is just terribly, inexplicably wrong with you and you aren't good enough in various ways. It hit me like a bolt of lightning one day in my late twenties, that there was nothing so terrible about me. She had been wrong.

Then you have to recognize that she will not change, and then you have to grieve. You have not had and will never have the mother that many others have.

Then you draw very strong boundaries. If you choose to interact, do not confide in her and do not expect any empathy or support from her. Keep everything superficial. Do not let anything she does or say go past your boundaries. Acknowledge that she's going to continue doing and saying things that make you feel bad, but you can learn to handle them.

Finally, become your own loving mother to yourself. Any time you are upset or feel you could use a loving, sympathetic mother's words, speak them to yourself. It's amazing.

PP, this is all very spot on. Thanks for posting.