Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 20:05     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's a bad idea. I see why it makes sense for some women to SAH for a few years, and totally get why people want to do that. But I don't understand staying home for several years at a time. It's not just about divorce, which statistically becomes less likely among college educated couples who marry mid 20s or later and have been married 10 years (which describes most of my circle), but underemployment, getting laid off, and death are much more likely. I've been shocked by how many people I know who have lost a spouse in their 40s. It's heartbreaking, devastating, but not really that rare. And these are healthy, fit people. I have a ridiculously athletic friend in her late 30s who out of nowhere discovered she has a brain tumor. Prognosis is good, but you just never know.

When my oldest starts middle school in a few years, I'll have been in the workforce for 20 years (working at least 4 days a week the entire time except for maternity leaves). I have an advanced degree and a great resume. I may step back, but I will definitely continue working in some capacity, either as an independent consultant or PT somewhere. I will probably ramp up again later. I don't think it's a good idea to step out of the workforce for more than 5 years, for anyone.

My mom was a great role model in that way. My dad was incredibly successful - a COO of a large national corporation. My mom stayed home for 6 years but when her youngest started first grade she went back PT (about 20 hours a week. Granted, we lived in less dense area than the DC area so her commute was 15 minutes which also helped). She kept up her teaching certifications etc. My parents have been married almost 50 years and are happy, but she's always worked once her kids started school in some capacity. She recently got a full time job opportunity that she ultimately decided to turn down and continue PT- it paid very little (though they retired in a very small town with very low cost of living) but if she needed it, it would have provided a steady salary and good benefits at least. I always want to be in a position where I can get a job.

I also think that when women leave the workforce entirely for years, they make it hard on themselves getting back in, meaning I've had many friends tell me they intended to go back once their kids started school, but they aren't confident and it's totally overwhelming to start from scratch applying for jobs. So it's a bit self-defeating for them and they put it off because they can. My advice to my two daughters is to get a great education, work hard, and if they do decide to stay home, have a plan for getting back in, in some capacity after a few years.


I have had a completely different experience from yours. My parents were happily married for 44 years, until the day my father died. My mother worked to support herself and her own mother, until she married and had children - then she never worked professionally again. I have an advanced degree, had a successful career (though I disliked my job), and worked up until the birth of our third child. We went on to have a fourth child, and I have been out of the workforce for nearly a decade and a half. In that time, we have lived in different parts of world following opportunities, and my spouse has enjoyed a thriving and increasingly successful professional life. I cannot imagine that the moves would have been easy on my professional career, if I had kept working, and they were certainly made easier for the children as I had all of my time to devote to their transitions and stability. In our case, it has worked out very well, as my life and professional flexibility allowed my spouse the ability to take on opportunities that he could not have assumed were I wedded to my former career in DC. And that ability to seize certain opportunities has led my spouse down a successful path. In truth, I have loved every year (if not each moment) spent with my family, and I would not trade them for anything. My spouse and I recently celebrated 22 years of marriage!
Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 16:35     Subject: Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:I left my career twelve years ago and have never looked back. In truth, I disliked my last job - though not my profession - so leaving that job stay home and raise a family was an easy decision. In my case, I am fortunate to have a strong marriage - of more than 20 years - to a wonderful husband and father. And we are also fortunate that DH has had a successful career. I know, as a professional, that it could work again if future circumstances dictate that. I hope to volunteer more as the children leave the house, in any case. The decision to leave one's profession is a risk, certainly, but if would never advise someone against it just because there is some risk - if that is what they want to do.


+1000
I would absolutely jump at the chance to stay home with my children. I'll never get this time with them back again.
Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 13:36     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not worth the time to consider because you can't extrapolate out from individual couples. In other words, it's all micro, no macro. I'm sorry your husband had mental problems and you got divorced but that has nothing to do with me. Every marriage is different and no one knows what goes on inside a marriage except the two people in it.


How wonderful to have 1000% certainty that nothing bad will ever befall you.



I agree with PP. My parents are together, reasonably happily, as are DH's parents. While either DH or I could lose our health or our jobs, I don't foresee divorce in our future. Our kids are young, we're still paying off debt and living paycheck-to-paycheck (yes, I 'm working part-time because we can't afford for me to SAHM, we tried it). When we're more financially secure, then we'll make better plans for future disasters.


I don't see divorce in my future either, but what about an extreme illness or accident leading my husband to be out of work for a very long period of time?


That is a problem all couples face.


It's one thing to face it when you're elderly and retired. Quite another when you're still making a mortgage payment and supporting your kid(s). But it does happen.
Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 12:13     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not worth the time to consider because you can't extrapolate out from individual couples. In other words, it's all micro, no macro. I'm sorry your husband had mental problems and you got divorced but that has nothing to do with me. Every marriage is different and no one knows what goes on inside a marriage except the two people in it.


How wonderful to have 1000% certainty that nothing bad will ever befall you.



I agree with PP. My parents are together, reasonably happily, as are DH's parents. While either DH or I could lose our health or our jobs, I don't foresee divorce in our future. Our kids are young, we're still paying off debt and living paycheck-to-paycheck (yes, I 'm working part-time because we can't afford for me to SAHM, we tried it). When we're more financially secure, then we'll make better plans for future disasters.


I don't see divorce in my future either, but what about an extreme illness or accident leading my husband to be out of work for a very long period of time?


That is a problem all couples face.
Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 11:03     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not worth the time to consider because you can't extrapolate out from individual couples. In other words, it's all micro, no macro. I'm sorry your husband had mental problems and you got divorced but that has nothing to do with me. Every marriage is different and no one knows what goes on inside a marriage except the two people in it.


How wonderful to have 1000% certainty that nothing bad will ever befall you.



I agree with PP. My parents are together, reasonably happily, as are DH's parents. While either DH or I could lose our health or our jobs, I don't foresee divorce in our future. Our kids are young, we're still paying off debt and living paycheck-to-paycheck (yes, I 'm working part-time because we can't afford for me to SAHM, we tried it). When we're more financially secure, then we'll make better plans for future disasters.


I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but how old are you?

I know of three couples who all were as you describe -- parents together, happily, kids, happy family dynamic, seemingly everything right. And then, in all three cases, one spouse -- who was never the type to cheat, seemed completely perfectly matched and content in their marriage -- met someone, and the result was divorce. In two cases, this happened after at least 10 years of marriage. (In one case, it happened after 15 years of marriage.) And in all three cases, it was a COMPLETE shock to the spouse being left, because they honestly never even imagined divorce would be a possibility.

I've never heard someone going through a divorce say "I totally thought we'd get divorced." Most people say, "I never thought we'd get divorced."
Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 09:54     Subject: Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Got a post-nup agreement, ironclad with the best attorneys, that guarantees me enough spousal support and assets that I could continue not working through college age for the kids, and after that I'd still be comfortable with a low-paying job.

I wasn't comfortable giving up my good income without some protection in place.

If our assets go to pot and aren't worth anything, and then we divorce, I guess I'll have to figure something out. But that is very unlikely in our situation, and I manage the finances so I'd be aware if anything strange was happening.
Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 09:45     Subject: Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
I think at some level yes. I felt comfortable scaling back when kids arrived because I have money in my name - without that I don't think I could have done it.

I have daughters and hope they can be in a similar position. And I honestly hope they have kids early enough that I'm still young enough to be able to help them make the transition into parenthood. I don't want to be their full time childcare, but would love to be in the position to step up as their reliable backup plan for business trips, to allow them to get a break with their spouse, or if they just want their kids to have some more time with family. I know personally it has made a huge difference in my kids lives to have involved grandparents, and I hope life works out so that I can do the same.
Anonymous
Post 03/15/2015 09:23     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Yes, it's a bad idea. I see why it makes sense for some women to SAH for a few years, and totally get why people want to do that. But I don't understand staying home for several years at a time. It's not just about divorce, which statistically becomes less likely among college educated couples who marry mid 20s or later and have been married 10 years (which describes most of my circle), but underemployment, getting laid off, and death are much more likely. I've been shocked by how many people I know who have lost a spouse in their 40s. It's heartbreaking, devastating, but not really that rare. And these are healthy, fit people. I have a ridiculously athletic friend in her late 30s who out of nowhere discovered she has a brain tumor. Prognosis is good, but you just never know.

When my oldest starts middle school in a few years, I'll have been in the workforce for 20 years (working at least 4 days a week the entire time except for maternity leaves). I have an advanced degree and a great resume. I may step back, but I will definitely continue working in some capacity, either as an independent consultant or PT somewhere. I will probably ramp up again later. I don't think it's a good idea to step out of the workforce for more than 5 years, for anyone.

My mom was a great role model in that way. My dad was incredibly successful - a COO of a large national corporation. My mom stayed home for 6 years but when her youngest started first grade she went back PT (about 20 hours a week. Granted, we lived in less dense area than the DC area so her commute was 15 minutes which also helped). She kept up her teaching certifications etc. My parents have been married almost 50 years and are happy, but she's always worked once her kids started school in some capacity. She recently got a full time job opportunity that she ultimately decided to turn down and continue PT- it paid very little (though they retired in a very small town with very low cost of living) but if she needed it, it would have provided a steady salary and good benefits at least. I always want to be in a position where I can get a job.

I also think that when women leave the workforce entirely for years, they make it hard on themselves getting back in, meaning I've had many friends tell me they intended to go back once their kids started school, but they aren't confident and it's totally overwhelming to start from scratch applying for jobs. So it's a bit self-defeating for them and they put it off because they can. My advice to my two daughters is to get a great education, work hard, and if they do decide to stay home, have a plan for getting back in, in some capacity after a few years.
Anonymous
Post 03/14/2015 23:20     Subject: Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Personally, I think that a woman should always keep her foot in the door but because of the price of child care and the stress of being a working mom, some women feel the need to stay at home for their own sanity. Perhaps the bigger issue is how can we make motherhood and working compatible.

Well said.

+1, very good point. The labor force participation rate amongst mothers in the US is shockingly low compared to other developed countries. That's a problem when the courts aren't providing much for the stay at home partner (usually the woman) after a divorce.


Division of marital assets and support depends a great deal on the length of the marriage. It is still generally the case in marriages of twenty or more years duration, wherein the working spouse is very successful, that the non-working partner will be awarded at least half the assets, as well as generous child and spousal support based on the accustomed standard of living. For some ex-spouses, that settlement will be more than enough to see them through a comfortable retirement (i.e., they are in no worse a position than if they had worked and saved for retirement themselves).


I all bullshit. I was married nearly 20 years (19) and I got lifetime CC and SS, but it will in NO way pay for me not to work. (And it's extremely generous.) And what about benefits?

I have never, ever heard in all my years of knowing wealthy divorced moms, of someone who gets a settlement that enables them to never work again.

Not working is a HUGE risk. I did it and the odds did not work out for me. Would I have done it differently?

Yes and no. The first three years of a child's life are so critical to his/her emotional stability and welfare that I am grateful that I was there for them.

Having said that, I should have worked part-time as they got older. I was just lazy and managed to keep myself very busy doing volunteer work (which is useless when you try to re-enter the workforce.)

Maybe the real question isn't working or not working, but rather, keeping your skills up. Working part-time, consulting, or freelancing. When you let those go, you start running some big risks. I'm lucky to have family money and a generous support agreement. My salary isn't enough to cut it for my kids and I in DC.

As for the poster who said her husband is already divorced, my breath stopped when I read her post. She is CRAZY not to work. I had no red flags like that in my marriage, and it still failed. Women like her should be dusting off their resumes. Second marriages only have a 25 percent survival rate.

Anonymous
Post 03/14/2015 23:12     Subject: Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:Not all men are abusive and drug addicts. I was raised where women work and my mom for your logic was horrified that I stayed home. It was unheard of in our family. I have a masters degree but if I go back now - 5 years out, my income will be small and I'd basically have to start all over so its not worth it to me. Plus, our children have some very mild special needs that still require therapy and support. It works for our family and my husband is very supportive. We've talked about me going back but I also have some health issues. I am ok with knowing my husband will take care of me as it is his second marriage and despite how he was treated by his ex, he was always supportive of her and the kids. If I look at his patterns of behaviors, he'll still be there for me and our kids. but in your case, if he had a pattern, no way I would have stopped working.

I don't have daughters but if I did, I would insist they get their education and work at least 5 years and then make the choice for themselves. I see the benefits for our family of me being home, but having both my parents working was no big deal either so I think its more important for the mom to be happy and ok with her decision as long as they can afford it.


Not all divorces occur because of abuse or addiction. Quite a few end because of special needs kids. Or because wives have health issues and can't contribute financially to the family.

What a shame you can't make any money with your Master's Degree. What a waste of tuition. What do you plan on doing with yourself once your kids are in school full-time?



Anonymous
Post 03/14/2015 23:04     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
I am a SAHM now. For me the man was never the plan. Infact I was so wary of losing my independence that I had decided not to marry. When I did get married, I was not in a hurry to have kids. My DH insisted that I save all my earnings and he supported me entirely. When I did decide to SAHM, I had built a very good nest egg. I have been married 25 years and I think I was very lucky to have found a loyal and loving husband. But this was luck. Right now, we are very comfortable with good retirement and college savings and a very low mortgage. We have no consumer debt except for the mortgage and we did not have any student debts when we married.

So, while I will not change my situation, I am absolutely 100% with OP, that women should be financially secure. What does that mean? They need to have money in their own name (earned, gifted, inherited, won, awarded, shared, bestowed, found ...does not matter!) AND they should know how to save money, invest it and grow it.

Women need to be financially savvy and they also need to be in professions that are very high paying. They should save as much as they can so that they have flexibility of choice.

My DD will go work hard in school, get a scholarship, maximize her education dollars, have no student loan, get into a high paying STEM field, start saving and investing early, make good financial decisions - before she gets married. The stakes for her is much higher than it is for my son.
Anonymous
Post 03/14/2015 21:47     Subject: Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
I think one must always have a back up plan, not just because of the possibility of divorce, but also death, disability, job loss, etc. My husband was unemployed and then underemployed for a year - not that bad in the grand scheme of things - but it was hard enough on us that we don't want that to ever happen again. We have back up plans. If he were to die, if we got divorced, I'd still be able to take care of the kids.
Anonymous
Post 03/14/2015 21:27     Subject: Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Honestly, you have to do what feels right for you. If you worry about divorce, then by all means do what you have to do to prepare yourself for that possibility.
Anonymous
Post 03/14/2015 20:39     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not worth the time to consider because you can't extrapolate out from individual couples. In other words, it's all micro, no macro. I'm sorry your husband had mental problems and you got divorced but that has nothing to do with me. Every marriage is different and no one knows what goes on inside a marriage except the two people in it.


How wonderful to have 1000% certainty that nothing bad will ever befall you.



I agree with PP. My parents are together, reasonably happily, as are DH's parents. While either DH or I could lose our health or our jobs, I don't foresee divorce in our future. Our kids are young, we're still paying off debt and living paycheck-to-paycheck (yes, I 'm working part-time because we can't afford for me to SAHM, we tried it). When we're more financially secure, then we'll make better plans for future disasters.


I don't see divorce in my future either, but what about an extreme illness or accident leading my husband to be out of work for a very long period of time?
Anonymous
Post 03/14/2015 20:34     Subject: Re:Is giving up making your own money a bad idea for ANY woman? (philosophical ponderings)
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not worth the time to consider because you can't extrapolate out from individual couples. In other words, it's all micro, no macro. I'm sorry your husband had mental problems and you got divorced but that has nothing to do with me. Every marriage is different and no one knows what goes on inside a marriage except the two people in it.


How wonderful to have 1000% certainty that nothing bad will ever befall you.



I agree with PP. My parents are together, reasonably happily, as are DH's parents. While either DH or I could lose our health or our jobs, I don't foresee divorce in our future. Our kids are young, we're still paying off debt and living paycheck-to-paycheck (yes, I 'm working part-time because we can't afford for me to SAHM, we tried it). When we're more financially secure, then we'll make better plans for future disasters.