NP on the topic of mild special needs kids fitting well with a small progressive school. I absolutely agree with the PP who suggested parents of such children think a small nontraditional school will work for their child when the truth is that such a school is NOT a good fit. I was one of those parents, although I did not find out my child had learning differences until she was already enrolled. But our decision to stay reflects the above assumption/belief that the school was ideal for her. It was not. The teaching style was far more inflexible than they lead you to believe. The teachers don't have time nor inclination to provide true differentiation. The peer group is much too small for a child to find friends if the child is quirky, needy, odd, or whatever. The kids there are from decent families and the parents and teachers encourage and model kindness and inclusiveness ... but these are KIDS and one should expect them to act as such, which means not always kind. And yes, there were some very intentional mean actions directed at my child, not just kids not wishing to be friends.

Burgundy is a wonderful school, but it is so important that parents be very clear about their own child's actual needs and also understand that things can change dramatically between JK and 8th grade.

9:07 - I think your comments are very fair and right on target.

If some of us seem defensive about Burgundy, it is because we want it to be a different kind of school. In many ways, it is more similar to other independent schools that we may care to admit. But, the school has always strived to set a different path than traditional schools.

More like this - http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/10/the-joyful-illiterate-kindergartners-of-finland/408325/

I am someone who was has been critical of the school and would like to provide a little balance and clarification to that criticism. It is true that this school was not a good fit for my child, but that does not mean that it will not be a good fit for another child. I believe that Burgundy, like any school, will be a good environment for some children to grow and learn and will be completely incompatible with the learning styles and emotional makeup of others. While this is true at any school, it is perhaps more apparent here than in more traditional school settings and that may be one reason people have such strong opinions. It can take a a while to figure out which category your child fits into leading to greater frustration if ultimately it isn't a good match. This doesn't mean the school is bad and it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the child. It simply means that the combination is not a good fit. With regard to bullying, we did indeed feel that our child was bullied/treated unkindly-sometimes the distinction is blurred. I recognize this is not unique to Burgundy and can and does happen everywhere but that does not lesson the pain of seeing your child unhappy. While at times I felt the admin and teachers were unresponsive to our concerns, I recognize that privacy laws prohibited me from knowing all of the actions that were or were not taken by the school. At times, I felt very frustrated but perhaps I was not alone in that frustration. The school takes a "whole child" approach to learning which means that it recognizes that children do not pass through development stages at a set pace. This is not a zero tolerance environment which overall, I believe is a good thing, as kids will make mistakes and need adult guidance to modify their behavior in socially acceptable ways. For some children this will take longer than others but this can be difficult for a sensitive child dealing with an insensitive one even if the actions do not reach the level of bullying. Meeting the needs of both children in this situation is, I am sure, a difficult task and one that can be rife with misunderstanding as I am well aware. People will need to evaluate the school based upon their expectations, their child's personality and learning style and even the children grouped with their child. This is not your average school. Parents spend more time together working in the classroom and visiting the Cove and it can be a little all encompassing which may be a good thing or a bad thing depending upon your perspective but it does seem to create strong feelings about the school without a lot of middle ground. To the original poster, good luck with your decision and I hope your child is happy whatever you decide.

When people are happy with their school environment (especially privates) there is a natural tendency to tenaciously defend that school from any criticism. In this case to diminish the experiences of other families and denigrate indiscriminately those children who did not have positive interactions (whether actually bullying or lessor unkindness, both of which occur at any school), in my opinion, places the entire school community in a negative light which is quite unfortunate as it is not reflective of the overall community. There will always be children at every school who are marginalized by their classmates and the consequences can have lasting negative effects. Burgundy is not immune from these issues no matter how nurturing the overall environment. Shouldn't we as adults and as role models for our children respond in kindness and compassion to those who feel their children were treated unkindly? To do otherwise would make it appear that the parents are behaving no better than the children. People can have different experiences at a school--any school. Be thankful if yours were positive, but also recognize that your positive experiences do not mean that no one else had negative experiences.

There is indeed a fine line between bullying and being unkind. However, shouldn't all schools and teachers endeavor to make a safe environment for all children entrusted in their care irrespective of whether they are special needs? I keep seeing posts insinuating that the children who don't fit in are somehow less deserving of kindness and intervention because someone believes them to be on the spectrum, adhd, etc--whether or not that is actually true. I would think that any school which enrolls any child would make it their mission to ensure the physical and emotional safety of that child. Are you somehow saying that should not be the case if the child is quirky, slow to mature, adhd or has some other "issue" you find objectionable? Bullying, childhood meanness and excluding children is present in all school environments but I would think that a school whose mission is to "educate the whole child" and focuses on diversity would also make its mission the welfare of all children they enroll. As past or present parents of the school are you disagreeing with that position? As a former Burgundy parent I am genuinely confused by the responses posted above.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know, there are unpleasant kids who get subtly excluded because they're unpleasant: obnoxious, unstable, excessively needy or demanding, prone to tantrums or tears, etc. You can require children to be courteous to one another, but you can't "make" them like difficult peers, and you can't make them want to play with or spend time with difficult peers.

There is real bullying in the world, but kids just not liking another kid and not wanting to play or work with him/her isn't bullying. It can be hurtful to that other kid, but it isn't appropriate to call it "bullying." Distinguish between intention -- what the law calls mens rea-- and result. Kids behaving hurtfully towards others for the purpose of causing pain are bullies. Kids who just don't like being around another kid and therefore try hard to avoid that kid can cause pain to the excluded kid, but it's not bullying.
.

My observation is that parents send a child with special needs here believing that if they child is just in a small environment that has an accepting culture, that it will work out and be ok. Unfortunately, what they don't understand is that the small environment means a small group of NT kids who all are pretty much on par with one another and try to be accepting of each individual's personality traits. This doesn't extend though to "quirks" that interrupt a child's ability to participate socially or academically. It's actually a worse environment for a child with something like very mild autism or Asperger's because the child will stand out even more in the small group setting of kids who are all at the same ability level and maturity.

This demeaning and dismissive statement is a typical Burgundy response (whether or not the child is or is not NT) blame the victim.

The child is the victim of the parents denial.

It's not just this school, it's any small independent schools that does not have a specific mission for special needs. It seems ideal on the surface because of the small classes and nurturing environment but for some kids and the needs they have, this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the support they are going to need at school but small independent schools can't offer much more past that support.

Again: bullying is defined (in the laws of most states as well as by common sense) as behavior that is INTENDED to cause physical or emotional distress. It is not defined by the subjective pain of a child who feels left out.

That pain can be real and acute: I have seen it in my own children at times (at Burgundy). But there is a lightyear's distance between the child who deliberately mocks, taunts, tricks, insults or spreads malicious gossip -- a bully -- and the child who is simply not quite mature enough to go out out of his or her way to include a difficult peer.

In my experience, Burgundy comes down hard on genuine bullying. To counteract the non-malicious but still hurtful forms of marginalization, the school makes every effort to encourage empathy and inclusiveness, and I think that on the whole Burgundy kids are about as nice to one another as any group of kids could possibly be expected to be. That doesn't mean they're not kids, and it doesn't mean no one will ever have their feelings hurt. But while I have plenty of criticisms of Burgundy, and voiced some earlier in this threat, the claim that the school is somehow soft on bullying is just nonsense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know, there are unpleasant kids who get subtly excluded because they're unpleasant: obnoxious, unstable, excessively needy or demanding, prone to tantrums or tears, etc. You can require children to be courteous to one another, but you can't "make" them like difficult peers, and you can't make them want to play with or spend time with difficult peers.

There is real bullying in the world, but kids just not liking another kid and not wanting to play or work with him/her isn't bullying. It can be hurtful to that other kid, but it isn't appropriate to call it "bullying." Distinguish between intention -- what the law calls mens rea-- and result. Kids behaving hurtfully towards others for the purpose of causing pain are bullies. Kids who just don't like being around another kid and therefore try hard to avoid that kid can cause pain to the excluded kid, but it's not bullying.
.

My observation is that parents send a child with special needs here believing that if they child is just in a small environment that has an accepting culture, that it will work out and be ok. Unfortunately, what they don't understand is that the small environment means a small group of NT kids who all are pretty much on par with one another and try to be accepting of each individual's personality traits. This doesn't extend though to "quirks" that interrupt a child's ability to participate socially or academically. It's actually a worse environment for a child with something like very mild autism or Asperger's because the child will stand out even more in the small group setting of kids who are all at the same ability level and maturity.

This demeaning and dismissive statement is a typical Burgundy response (whether or not the child is or is not NT) blame the victim.

Long time Burgundy parent. As a small school, my impression is that Burgundy really isn't equipped to handle the needs of children with learning and physical differences. A child on the spectrum might have some real difficulties with the school's attention to independence, social development, and group learning. A child with physical challenges is going to have problems getting around the campus between all the spread out buildings. The easiest way to figure out if it might work for your child is to have an honest discussion with the admissions director. If you don't put those concerns front and center, you're not going to get a true sense of whether the school can help your child thrive. Misguided assumptions about what a progressive education means and how it works for different children is a source for some of the unhappy feelings expressed on a thread like this.

Anonymous wrote:You know, there are unpleasant kids who get subtly excluded because they're unpleasant: obnoxious, unstable, excessively needy or demanding, prone to tantrums or tears, etc. You can require children to be courteous to one another, but you can't "make" them like difficult peers, and you can't make them want to play with or spend time with difficult peers.

There is real bullying in the world, but kids just not liking another kid and not wanting to play or work with him/her isn't bullying. It can be hurtful to that other kid, but it isn't appropriate to call it "bullying." Distinguish between intention -- what the law calls mens rea-- and result. Kids behaving hurtfully towards others for the purpose of causing pain are bullies. Kids who just don't like being around another kid and therefore try hard to avoid that kid can cause pain to the excluded kid, but it's not bullying.
.

My observation is that parents send a child with special needs here believing that if they child is just in a small environment that has an accepting culture, that it will work out and be ok. Unfortunately, what they don't understand is that the small environment means a small group of NT kids who all are pretty much on par with one another and try to be accepting of each individual's personality traits. This doesn't extend though to "quirks" that interrupt a child's ability to participate socially or academically. It's actually a worse environment for a child with something like very mild autism or Asperger's because the child will stand out even more in the small group setting of kids who are all at the same ability level and maturity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know, there are unpleasant kids who get subtly excluded because they're unpleasant: obnoxious, unstable, excessively needy or demanding, prone to tantrums or tears, etc. You can require children to be courteous to one another, but you can't "make" them like difficult peers, and you can't make them want to play with or spend time with difficult peers.

There is real bullying in the world, but kids just not liking another kid and not wanting to play or work with him/her isn't bullying. It can be hurtful to that other kid, but it isn't appropriate to call it "bullying." Distinguish between intention -- what the law calls mens rea-- and result. Kids behaving hurtfully towards others for the purpose of causing pain are bullies. Kids who just don't like being around another kid and therefore try hard to avoid that kid can cause pain to the excluded kid, but it's not bullying.
.

However, the most common kind of bullying after age 5 or so is social exclusion. Many of the kids who are bullied this way are perfectly nice kids who may be less assertive or not have the right clothes or just are the victims of a screwed up child who likes manipulating others. Mean kid begins as early as 3 among little girls, and if the kids are not appropriately coached, many of them get better and more subtle at it as they get older. Their sole objective is simply to control and wield power. Some are sociopaths.

Parents of children like this often blame the other kid for somehow provoking the bully. It's a good way to keep the bully going on his or her path.

+1

+1 Also, this is the type of bullying that is very common at Burgundy. Mean girl cliques in every grade from 4th grade on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know, there are unpleasant kids who get subtly excluded because they're unpleasant: obnoxious, unstable, excessively needy or demanding, prone to tantrums or tears, etc. You can require children to be courteous to one another, but you can't "make" them like difficult peers, and you can't make them want to play with or spend time with difficult peers.

There is real bullying in the world, but kids just not liking another kid and not wanting to play or work with him/her isn't bullying. It can be hurtful to that other kid, but it isn't appropriate to call it "bullying." Distinguish between intention -- what the law calls mens rea-- and result. Kids behaving hurtfully towards others for the purpose of causing pain are bullies. Kids who just don't like being around another kid and therefore try hard to avoid that kid can cause pain to the excluded kid, but it's not bullying.
.

However, the most common kind of bullying after age 5 or so is social exclusion. Many of the kids who are bullied this way are perfectly nice kids who may be less assertive or not have the right clothes or just are the victims of a screwed up child who likes manipulating others. Mean kid begins as early as 3 among little girls, and if the kids are not appropriately coached, many of them get better and more subtle at it as they get older. Their sole objective is simply to control and wield power. Some are sociopaths.

Parents of children like this often blame the other kid for somehow provoking the bully. It's a good way to keep the bully going on his or her path.

+1

Anonymous wrote:You know, there are unpleasant kids who get subtly excluded because they're unpleasant: obnoxious, unstable, excessively needy or demanding, prone to tantrums or tears, etc. You can require children to be courteous to one another, but you can't "make" them like difficult peers, and you can't make them want to play with or spend time with difficult peers.

There is real bullying in the world, but kids just not liking another kid and not wanting to play or work with him/her isn't bullying. It can be hurtful to that other kid, but it isn't appropriate to call it "bullying." Distinguish between intention -- what the law calls mens rea-- and result. Kids behaving hurtfully towards others for the purpose of causing pain are bullies. Kids who just don't like being around another kid and therefore try hard to avoid that kid can cause pain to the excluded kid, but it's not bullying.
.

However, the most common kind of bullying after age 5 or so is social exclusion. Many of the kids who are bullied this way are perfectly nice kids who may be less assertive or not have the right clothes or just are the victims of a screwed up child who likes manipulating others. Mean kid begins as early as 3 among little girls, and if the kids are not appropriately coached, many of them get better and more subtle at it as they get older. Their sole objective is simply to control and wield power. Some are sociopaths.

Parents of children like this often blame the other kid for somehow provoking the bully. It's a good way to keep the bully going on his or her path.

You know, there are unpleasant kids who get subtly excluded because they're unpleasant: obnoxious, unstable, excessively needy or demanding, prone to tantrums or tears, etc. You can require children to be courteous to one another, but you can't "make" them like difficult peers, and you can't make them want to play with or spend time with difficult peers.

There is real bullying in the world, but kids just not liking another kid and not wanting to play or work with him/her isn't bullying. It can be hurtful to that other kid, but it isn't appropriate to call it "bullying." Distinguish between intention -- what the law calls mens rea-- and result. Kids behaving hurtfully towards others for the purpose of causing pain are bullies. Kids who just don't like being around another kid and therefore try hard to avoid that kid can cause pain to the excluded kid, but it's not bullying.
.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure. Kids do the eye roll, the turn-your-back-and-pretend-you-didn't-see thing with a kid they don't want to play with, the subtle brush off. ("What are you guys talking about?" "Oh, nothing.") They do a million tiny little mean things. But by itself, this is not "bullying." Not everything that hurts a kid's feelings is bullying.

If these kinds of behaviors are done in a systematic way that's designed to exclude one child from being part of a group, yes it is bullying.

. + 1 and I am not someone who thinks everything is bullying.