I bet that some of these nasty comments come from men.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My impression is that the legal market in DC still has a lot of lawyers looking for work. Many of them would be happy to work longer hours for a good job. I think the question is how do you compete with them. What makes you a better candidate than a recent grad willing to work unlimited hours?

OP here. No, the question is rather "why should a law firm job necessarily mean with such long hours?" People just seem to accept this, yet in other countries being a lawyer at a law firm means regular hours (9-5 or 9-6,most of the time).

Move to another country!

OP here. PP, you are entitled to your nasty opinion. But seriously, why should an entire career track be closed off to people (m/f) who value time with their family but otherwise enjoy this profession?

It shouldn't be, but it just is. Would you work for a social service agency or legal aid? They might be willing to work with your schedule, and are definitely in need of attorneys for their clients.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy cow. OP you sure you want to stay in a career field with such condescending people? Sounds like you'd be dodging a bullet if the whole law thing didn't work out.

C'mon you guys. Especially the moms. If you all are brilliant and articulate and professional enough to be successful attorneys surely you could come up with career advice (even advisement NOT to pursue law) that doesn't sound like you're a 7th grade mean girl.

You really expect people who have pursued and succeeded in a highly competitive field, filled with Type As, often at the expense of their personal life, to tell someone how to get what they have, without any of that pesky commitment and sacrifice stuff?


Hahaaaaa.......

At the expense of your tact, too? Worth it?

I think there's a place for everyone. I agree that in law, you're hard-pressed to find successful women who haven't had to sacrifice just about everything. It sucks but it's a fact. I know of a couple of women in that field who have found alternative schedules/arrangements that afford them some more freedom family-wise, albeit at the expense of salary and promotion potential. It sounds like OP is willing to forgo some things to get more flexibility. Anyway, I guess I'm sensitive to her plight because I came on this board asking for similar advice (in a different field) and was chewed up and spit out. I was stunned by how vicious other moms could be. Honesty is cool (and welcomed) but I think we'd all sound a lot more honest and reasonable if we talked to each other on here the way we talked to our friends in the flesh. fWIW, despite the naysayers I found a niche that allowed me to have a flexible part time schedule and still stay current in my field. I had to go after it and create opportunities for myself, and I make a lot less money than I did before. But there's a balance and it works for my family (right now). Anything is possible, even if it's the exception and not the rule.

OP here. Thank you so much for all your great advice! I will look into the alternatives that you have suggested.

Anonymous wrote:Holy cow. OP you sure you want to stay in a career field with such condescending people? Sounds like you'd be dodging a bullet if the whole law thing didn't work out.

C'mon you guys. Especially the moms. If you all are brilliant and articulate and professional enough to be successful attorneys surely you could come up with career advice (even advisement NOT to pursue law) that doesn't sound like you're a 7th grade mean girl.

You really expect people who have pursued and succeeded in a highly competitive field, filled with Type As, often at the expense of their personal life, to tell someone how to get what they have, without any of that pesky commitment and sacrifice stuff?


Hahaaaaa.......

Anonymous wrote:All of the lawyers I have worked with in other countries work long hours, too. And I have worked with many. Why do you think they work fewer hours? Do you have experience with them doing this?

Uhhh yeah OP. Where do you get the idea that lawyers in other countries work less hours? That is simply not true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My impression is that the legal market in DC still has a lot of lawyers looking for work. Many of them would be happy to work longer hours for a good job. I think the question is how do you compete with them. What makes you a better candidate than a recent grad willing to work unlimited hours?

OP here. No, the question is rather "why should a law firm job necessarily mean with such long hours?" People just seem to accept this, yet in other countries being a lawyer at a law firm means regular hours (9-5 or 9-6,most of the time).

That's really not true, at least in Western Europe and most parts of Asia. It's generally not 2000 billable hours, but it's not 40 hours a week either. Not sure about India and Africa. Also in many other countries associate pay is a fraction of what it is here.

Look into government, maybe a small firm, contract work, or in house. There are lots of options outside big law firms, although all are very competitive since employment stats for lawyers are so dismal right now. Hopefully you went to a top school?

Holy cow. OP you sure you want to stay in a career field with such condescending people? Sounds like you'd be dodging a bullet if the whole law thing didn't work out.

C'mon you guys. Especially the moms. If you all are brilliant and articulate and professional enough to be successful attorneys surely you could come up with career advice (even advisement NOT to pursue law) that doesn't sound like you're a 7th grade mean girl.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My impression is that the legal market in DC still has a lot of lawyers looking for work. Many of them would be happy to work longer hours for a good job. I think the question is how do you compete with them. What makes you a better candidate than a recent grad willing to work unlimited hours?

OP here. No, the question is rather "why should a law firm job necessarily mean with such long hours?" People just seem to accept this, yet in other countries being a lawyer at a law firm means regular hours (9-5 or 9-6,most of the time).

Move to another country!

OP here. PP, you are entitled to your nasty opinion. But seriously, why should an entire career track be closed off to people (m/f) who value time with their family but otherwise enjoy this profession?

First, I'm not sure how you know you enjoy the profession, because you've never entered it. Second, your first question was how you get the training you need as a lawyer without working law firm hours. Multiple people answered you. Now, you've changed the question to, in essence, "Why does it have to be this way!?!?! They do it differently in [fill in blank]!!" The answer, of course, is that it doesn't have to be this way - but it IS this way. So, you can whine about it, you can accept it, or you can try to change it. But as others have said, applying for a legal job with no experience and saying you want to get all the training the law firm has to offer while working a part-time schedule is unlikely to be a fruitful endeavor.

I wish you the best of luck.

(Actually, I don't, because you sound like a whiny twatwaffle, but it's the polite thing to say.)

Not OP, but my new favourite phrase ever!

Hi OP - You are not going to get an of counsel position, given your qualifications and experience. Those are for experienced lawyers who have special expertise, or who have lots of clients.

I am a former biglaw lawyer with lots of friends who are still in the field. It's grueling. And, honestly, if you are a year out of law school and haven't already started working in that world - and/or don't have the sort of experience that makes you valuable to a firm - it's too late for you to get in there.

Which is great, since that is incompatible with what you say you're looking for, anyway - which is a lawyer job with reasonable hours.

Whether you like it or not, law firm jobs take up your life. In return, you get paid a lot and get some prestige. That's the tradeoff.

But there are lots of ways to be a lawyer. Biglaw is just one of those ways. You can look for a job with the city, you can look for a job with a nonprofit, you can work for a small firm or a solo practitioner, you can do document review. Look for a job with the federal government, even - probably not DOJ, but, like, I have a friend who's a staff lawyer with the SSA, handling administrative appeals.

You have options. Biglaw isn't one of them. Saying that isn't fair won't help your situation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My impression is that the legal market in DC still has a lot of lawyers looking for work. Many of them would be happy to work longer hours for a good job. I think the question is how do you compete with them. What makes you a better candidate than a recent grad willing to work unlimited hours?

OP here. No, the question is rather "why should a law firm job necessarily mean with such long hours?" People just seem to accept this, yet in other countries being a lawyer at a law firm means regular hours (9-5 or 9-6,most of the time).

Move to another country!

OP here. PP, you are entitled to your nasty opinion. But seriously, why should an entire career track be closed off to people (m/f) who value time with their family but otherwise enjoy this profession?

First, I'm not sure how you know you enjoy the profession, because you've never entered it. Second, your first question was how you get the training you need as a lawyer without working law firm hours. Multiple people answered you. Now, you've changed the question to, in essence, "Why does it have to be this way!?!?! They do it differently in [fill in blank]!!" The answer, of course, is that it doesn't have to be this way - but it IS this way. So, you can whine about it, you can accept it, or you can try to change it. But as others have said, applying for a legal job with no experience and saying you want to get all the training the law firm has to offer while working a part-time schedule is unlikely to be a fruitful endeavor.

I wish you the best of luck.

(Actually, I don't, because you sound like a whiny twatwaffle, but it's the polite thing to say.)

I do have one friend who was able to get a part time job right out of law school as an assistant city attorney, he worked about 35 hours but ultimately left because there was no chance for advancement. He also had a 2 hour each way commute (not in this area). Would you be willing to move?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My impression is that the legal market in DC still has a lot of lawyers looking for work. Many of them would be happy to work longer hours for a good job. I think the question is how do you compete with them. What makes you a better candidate than a recent grad willing to work unlimited hours?

OP here. No, the question is rather "why should a law firm job necessarily mean with such long hours?" People just seem to accept this, yet in other countries being a lawyer at a law firm means regular hours (9-5 or 9-6,most of the time).

Why don't you concern yourself with these maco questions after you've obtained a legal position -- which is a difficult thing to do. If you went to a T14 school and did well, you're in good shape. If you went to some mediocre school around here -- think George Mason, American, Catholic, for example -- you really have your work cut out for you. Perhaps the legal profession will change someday, but for now, partners ain't giving up what it took them so long to get. And for every person who complains about the hours, it's next sucker up. Law firm associates are largely fungible, but the top firms want to hire from the top schools. You need to talk to your school's career services center and get going with any legal position you can find -- federal government ones are very hard to obtain straight out of law school, but there are county or city ones.

OP, I don't think that long hours are necessarily reserved for those in the legal field. Every profession has it's own way of weeding the wheat from the chaff, and early on in any career, that process seems to involve long hours and problems with work / life balance. I have friends in every kind of job - medicine, legal, engineering, specialized trades... There is always a trade off of time at the beginning of your career if you want the pay in the end.

Knowing this is also really a deep seated culture in law, why would you choose it AND choose to have a baby mid stream?

Anonymous wrote:All of the lawyers I have worked with in other countries work long hours, too. And I have worked with many. Why do you think they work fewer hours? Do you have experience with them doing this?

OP You are not going to change how law firms work. Part time is for stars and of counsel is for much more experienced lawyers. You should try the government. Also an employer will look at the age of your child and ask themselves, will she want another baby soon? Which would be logical for them (and you) but they would be likely to not want to work with a young mom who was pregnant in addition to having a 2 year old. Law firms do what they think is best for them. Smart would be to get a government position before you get pregnant again. Sats show that something like 90% of women partners do not have kids at all.