Anonymous wrote:It's more than Marshall and McLean. I would include Oakton, Robinson, Lake Braddock, West Springfield, Woodson, Langley (the ones I know) and possibly Chantilly, Centreville, and maybe some others. Wherever there is a strong middle to upper middle class parent group, there will be many, if not all, of the things mentioned above.

Certainly Madison as well.

Add the dance team at West Springfield HS. They made it to the finals in "America's Got Talent" 2 years ago.

It's more than Marshall and McLean. I would include Oakton, Robinson, Lake Braddock, West Springfield, Woodson, Langley (the ones I know) and possibly Chantilly, Centreville, and maybe some others. Wherever there is a strong middle to upper middle class parent group, there will be many, if not all, of the things mentioned above.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow! 18:37 -- in your experience, which schools in FCPS fit this criteria? It sounds impressive. That kind of energy impresses me more than SAT averages and high rankings in Great Schools/SOLs.

Sounds like either Marshall or McLean

Sounds like the very good high school I went to growing up, in another state. The Arlington and Fairfax high schools are not all like this?

Anonymous wrote:Wow! 18:37 -- in your experience, which schools in FCPS fit this criteria? It sounds impressive. That kind of energy impresses me more than SAT averages and high rankings in Great Schools/SOLs.

Sounds like either Marshall or McLean

Wow! 18:37 -- in your experience, which schools in FCPS fit this criteria? It sounds impressive. That kind of energy impresses me more than SAT averages and high rankings in Great Schools/SOLs.

^Piggybacking on the above for an elementary school:

Odyssey of the Mind competitions
Chess Club
Honors band, orchestra, and chorus groups
Science club
Foreign Language after school classes


These are just a few of the things that are largely organized by an active parent presence.

Anonymous wrote:I've always been one to say "the less than top, top schools are fine." But, this thread has me wondering -- what exactly are the "extras" that the "Better" schools have?

Could you identify the school and give examples of things that they have that you think other schools don't. I'm genuinely curious what my kids might miss out on if we stay in our current school (which isn't a dump, but would typically be considered low-end in FFX).

OK, I'll bite, given that you said that you're genuinely curious. I recognize that the school you suggested might be labeled "low-end" may indeed have many of these:

- class trips (domestic/abroad) for students in selected AP/IB classes during school year/breaks
- teams that excel in math, science, robotics and/or cybersecurity competitions
- strong student publications (newspaper, yearbook, literary magazine) w/trips to conventions
- strong band/orchestra/music programs w/trips to regional and national competitions
- strong theatre programs
- DECA programs for students interested in business/marketing
- service organizations such as Best Buddies
- enough interest to field boys and girls freshmen/JV/varsity sports teams in all team sports
- club sports (crew, ice hockey, rugby)
- strong PTAs/booster clubs that raise money for capital projects (turf fields, other facilities)
- well-organized and attended teacher/staff appreciation days
- sense of obvious pride in the school among teachers, students, parents
- ability of student groups to raise funds in surrounding community
- limits on number of SOL practice tests (i.e., comfort that school will meet NCLB goals)
- limited cancellations of IB/AP classes due to inadequate interest
- cadre of experienced teachers with limited turnover
- counselors who assist properly with IEPs, 504s, course selection, college applications (identification of safeties/targets/reaches, essays, transcripts, scholarship opportunities, etc.)
- school/student directories available to families

In my opinion, when a school has most of these features, there's a greater likelihood that kids will find their niche, feel invested in the school, and want to do well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah yes, a "good school" where everyone has high SES and is demographically uniform. "Good students" at a "good school cannot possibly come from anything else. Students in that bubble have little exposure, tolerance or interest in those around them from other demographic or income backgrounds... breeding the next prince and princesses of Wall Street and the tech world. That bubble separates them from understanding.

I can't think of any public HS in NoVa that is "demographically uniform" and can only think of two that have next to no low-SES students (TJHSST and Langley). This is a very diverse part of the country.

Arlington has 4 elementary schools with fewer than 5% of kids who are FARMS, and two middle schools and one high school with fewer than 15%. That's not very diverse. The schools in Falls Church City all have fewer than 10% kids in FARMS. In Fairfax Region 1 alone there are four pyramids with similar demographics. Despite the significant diversity in this area, these schools are very homogenous.

Yeah, I was referring to high schools, since it didn't seem appropriate to debate whether elementary school students were being groomed to be Wall Street titans, as opposed to being taught to tie their shoes and read.

To me, homogeneity connotes both similar SES status and the same race, but perhaps those who think in post-racial terms think of schools with fewer than 15% FARMS students as homogeneous, regardless of their racial or ethnic diversity.

Well, everyone gets all offended on these boards if you insinuate that they are interested in "good schools" because they don't want their kids going to school with Hispanic or AA kids. If it really is just SES, then there are some schools that have very concentrated wealth, and some with very concentrated poverty, and the school districts could redraw some boundaries or use choice programs to mix that up a little more.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah yes, a "good school" where everyone has high SES and is demographically uniform. "Good students" at a "good school cannot possibly come from anything else. Students in that bubble have little exposure, tolerance or interest in those around them from other demographic or income backgrounds... breeding the next prince and princesses of Wall Street and the tech world. That bubble separates them from understanding.

I can't think of any public HS in NoVa that is "demographically uniform" and can only think of two that have next to no low-SES students (TJHSST and Langley). This is a very diverse part of the country.

Arlington has 4 elementary schools with fewer than 5% of kids who are FARMS, and two middle schools and one high school with fewer than 15%. That's not very diverse. The schools in Falls Church City all have fewer than 10% kids in FARMS. In Fairfax Region 1 alone there are four pyramids with similar demographics. Despite the significant diversity in this area, these schools are very homogenous.

Yeah, I was referring to high schools, since it didn't seem appropriate to debate whether elementary school students were being groomed to be Wall Street titans, as opposed to being taught to tie their shoes and read.

To me, homogeneity connotes both similar SES status and the same race, but perhaps those who think in post-racial terms think of schools with fewer than 15% FARMS students as homogeneous, regardless of their racial or ethnic diversity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah yes, a "good school" where everyone has high SES and is demographically uniform. "Good students" at a "good school cannot possibly come from anything else. Students in that bubble have little exposure, tolerance or interest in those around them from other demographic or income backgrounds... breeding the next prince and princesses of Wall Street and the tech world. That bubble separates them from understanding.

I can't think of any public HS in NoVa that is "demographically uniform" and can only think of two that have next to no low-SES students (TJHSST and Langley). This is a very diverse part of the country.

Arlington has 4 elementary schools with fewer than 5% of kids who are FARMS, and two middle schools and one high school with fewer than 15%. That's not very diverse. The schools in Falls Church City all have fewer than 10% kids in FARMS. In Fairfax Region 1 alone there are four pyramids with similar demographics. Despite the significant diversity in this area, these schools are very homogenous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I totally agree with what you are saying and have said the same thing myself “Good is defined by the socioeconomic status of the students.” That said my son does attend a school with a high FARMS rate and while I think it is a good school in terms of the education and quality of teachers he has, I also see the drawbacks. Some things I do not like about his school and the high FARMS rates- lack of parental involvement- seems to be the same small group of higher SES parents who do everything, it is impossible to communicate with parents in the class and organize things like gifts for teachers, lack of relationships with kids outside of the classroom (good luck getting any of his school friends to do things like attend a b-day party). Overall I know my son will succeed no matter where he goes because he comes from a home with 2 well educated parents who will supplement his education and push him to succeed, but the social aspect of a high FARMS school does make me a little sad and makes me think more about moving.

This gets repeated at the middle and high school level. Have been in both types of schools. At higher SES schools there will be more activities, more trips, and more parents who will chaperone and lend their time and efforts to things like fundraisers and teacher appreciation days. All around just a more positive environment than at schools where the teachers and administrators have to do everything and then some. Don't get me wrong, some of the people at the high FARMS schools are DEDICATED and PHENOMENAL, but they are expected to do so much.

So why not change the boundaries around within a school district, so that every school has a more evenly mixed group? Many of the schools here are either very high FARMS rate or very low.

Are you talking about FCPS? Easier said than done, since there's a concentration of low FARMS schools in the northern and central part of the county and high FARMS schools in the southeastern part of the county. Unless, of course, you get rid of contiguous school boundaries and just start busing kids around a county where traffic congestion is a major issue. It might be easier in APS, which also has big differences in FARMS rates among schools, but is also a much smaller jurisdiction.

They already do this to some degree. For example, my neighborhood which is probably considered “middle class” for the DC area (our Gross HHI is $200k) and made up of similar families is split into 4 different elementary schools. Geographically it makes absolutely no sense. With ¾ of the kids going to the elementary school that is not the closest to home. All 4 elementary school have about a 40-50% FARMS rate. If they were not to split up our neighborhood I suspect that some of the school could have closer to a 75% FARMS rate. So I assume they split our neighborhood to even things out amongst the schools.

Anonymous wrote:Ah yes, a "good school" where everyone has high SES and is demographically uniform. "Good students" at a "good school cannot possibly come from anything else. Students in that bubble have little exposure, tolerance or interest in those around them from other demographic or income backgrounds... breeding the next prince and princesses of Wall Street and the tech world. That bubble separates them from understanding.

I can't think of any public HS in NoVa that is "demographically uniform" and can only think of two that have next to no low-SES students (TJHSST and Langley). This is a very diverse part of the country.