Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 18:08     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
"Suck it up and deal" is exactly what children of divorced parents have to do, re: their parents' divorce, for the rest of their lives. I hate it.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 16:53     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
Anonymous wrote:My opinion on this is divorce.

Reason being is because if the children see both parents stay in a marital union where both parties are miserable, whether there is actual fighting going on or not, they will for sure sense some marital discord within the home environment and thus grow up believing this is completely normal...That this is what a typical and normal marriage is all about.

It will be a horrible example for how they will model their future relationships on and a vicious cycle may continue on and on....

Also, an unhappy parent = an unhappy child ultimately.

Parents must understand that children are a lot smarter than they think, and that they have excellent instincts. It is almost impossible to hide the fact from your child on a daily basis that you are living a lie and simply enduring each day, not celebrating it.

I am not saying divorce and broken families is a walk in the park. Divorce can be brutal on children as well.

But when you compare both situations overall, staying in a bad marriage is more toxic for the children growing up and has the worst lasting effect on them as they become adults.

This. This is why so many adults are in bad relationships today yet call it normal. They think sucking it up is just what life is about. It doesn't have to be; I want better for my children than for them to have to just suck it up and deal.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 16:16     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
I can't say enough about the book - it's not just that it screws up their ability to form healthy long term relationships, it screws up EVERYTHING. Grades, health, income down the road, delinquency rates, you name it.

Consider Retrouvaille- it's a marriage saving counseling program that has worked wonders for many friends. It's catholic but even my atheist friends recommend it.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 14:02     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
Anonymous wrote:A dud marriage where you don't feel connected or in love, but otherwise can be considerate to one another is better for kids than divorce. But if there is any friction, like regular fighting or worse, divorce generally is better.


As a child of divorce, I think the above is the best advice.

A lot of people like to point to longitudinal relationship data for children of divorce for "proof" that staying together for the kids is always better, but I don't think that's nearly as clear as people pretend. As an adult, I also wound up divorced, but teasing out whether that's because my parents divorced or because they had an awful marriage, is very difficult to do. I would say that most of my relationship troubles as an adult stemmed from learning really bad, negative patterns from my parents - while they were together.

And as far as learning that divorce was acceptable - my experience left me tending to stay in very broken relationships for far, far too long - tolerant of really bad dynamics. This means that I stayed married much longer than I probably would have otherwise.

But I think it really depends on the particular relationship - I don't think you can make blanket statements.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 13:06     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
Early divorce is better than a high conflict family life. The later in childhood the divorce is, the harder on the kids.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 03:49     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
I am in the thick of the divorce process: I couldn't stand the marriage but let me tell you divorce (even tho the kids are teens and older) is SO INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT. I never expected to feel so alone and despairing when he started dating (right away!) and to be so panic-stricken about the money that I'd have to live on post-divorce. And the terrible burden of not saying anything negative about the spouse in front of the kids. And the pain when former friends of both of you invite only him out for whatever. And the loss of my closest confidant, jerk that he was. It all really really sucks and don't divorce if you think it won't be so bad. It will.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 03:25     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
Anonymous wrote:My opinion on this is divorce.

Reason being is because if the children see both parents stay in a marital union where both parties are miserable, whether there is actual fighting going on or not, they will for sure sense some marital discord within the home environment and thus grow up believing this is completely normal...That this is what a typical and normal marriage is all about.

It will be a horrible example for how they will model their future relationships on and a vicious cycle may continue on and on....

Also, an unhappy parent = an unhappy child ultimately.

Parents must understand that children are a lot smarter than they think, and that they have excellent instincts. It is almost impossible to hide the fact from your child on a daily basis that you are living a lie and simply enduring each day, not celebrating it.

I am not saying divorce and broken families is a walk in the park. Divorce can be brutal on children as well.

But when you compare both situations overall, staying in a bad marriage is more toxic for the children growing up and has the worst lasting effect on them as they become adults.


Exactly. I read that kids from divorce are much more reluctant to have long term relationships and all that. As a child of divorce myself, I can't help but wonder: is that really so bad? With all the unhappy marriages out there, and the people who just jump into marriage because it's the thing to do and they trust that their partner's issues will iron out over time, I wonder if it might be really helpful to be a bit commitment phobic.
Anonymous
Post 01/03/2015 03:22     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
My opinion on this is divorce.

Reason being is because if the children see both parents stay in a marital union where both parties are miserable, whether there is actual fighting going on or not, they will for sure sense some marital discord within the home environment and thus grow up believing this is completely normal...That this is what a typical and normal marriage is all about.

It will be a horrible example for how they will model their future relationships on and a vicious cycle may continue on and on....

Also, an unhappy parent = an unhappy child ultimately.

Parents must understand that children are a lot smarter than they think, and that they have excellent instincts. It is almost impossible to hide the fact from your child on a daily basis that you are living a lie and simply enduring each day, not celebrating it.

I am not saying divorce and broken families is a walk in the park. Divorce can be brutal on children as well.

But when you compare both situations overall, staying in a bad marriage is more toxic for the children growing up and has the worst lasting effect on them as they become adults.
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2015 23:39     Subject: Re:What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Every day you vow not to subject them to your fighting?

Why don't you just stop arguing, period?


NP, but this is hard. We seem to operate on two separate sets of experiences. His growing up vs. my growing up. What he remembers of of his time with DD vs. what I remember. We don't have the same experiences at all. Our reactions, our parenting is totally different. So, little things become fights in front of DD, because we each challenge the way the other reacts to DD at every turn. Every moment. Every nap.


Of course it's hard, but so what?! LIFE is hard. You don't get to opt out of things simply because they are "hard." (What kind of terrible example is THAT to set for your kids?

You have written an excellent description here of the dynamic that goes on between many, many, many (most if not all) couples when they first have kids. You are bringing to your parenting all of the baggage of your own growing up experiences -- that's what you know, good or bad and the familiar seems what is right. Anything else is "wrong." This affects issues from the reasonable to the ridiculous ("what do you mean, Santa wraps gifts?? No he does NOT! In my house growing up, Santa did not wrap his gifts and that's the way it should be for our kids!") The real problem is that you are letting everything turn into a power play because --- out of deep insecurity -- you both desperately need to be proved "right."

The best solution DH and I found was to simply split up the tasks. He got to make some decisions and I supported them, whether I agreed or not. Same with me and what I got to decide on. The important thing is to present a united front to your kids. Make a list of everything you are arguing over now -- baths, naps, eating, clothes she's wearing, whether or not to cry it out, etc etc. There will be many now, and the list will constantly change as she grows up. Then be honest -- which things are really important to you, and which are more important to DH? My kids are older, but to me, what is important is that they say please/ thank you, wear what I consider to be appropriate clothing, that they write thank you notes, that they have some religious training and that they eat a nutritious diet. DH cares more about structured time for schoolwork, how sports and extra curricular activities are determined, etc. You get the picture. He makes his decisions and I make mine but then we agree to SUPPORT, not criticize each other, even when a decision turns out to be the wrong one.


+1 to this advice. I especially had to laugh at whether Santa wraps gifts but so true how parenting things becomes this shrine to how you were raised and an attack against something you feel your parents did well feels like an attack against you. Then once you feel like you and your parents and grandparents have been attacked on your way of doing things and/or you feel like you aren't being valued and your opinions mean nothing in raising your child ....

I grew up with exactly that type of fighting with my parents. What I realized was that BOTH my parents had good points and I would have had a better childhood and my parents would have had a better marriage if they took time to appreciate each other and realize that our lives would have been enhanced by both points of view, not just one and certainly not with all the arguing. In the case of the PP, their kids are growing up with manners, religious education, learning proper nutrition, being able to be organized with school work, getting regular physical activity and learning teamwork/leadership thru sports ...It would have been a lot of work for one parent to be point on all of those things, would not have happened if they felt the need to argue about everything, makes both parents feel like they are contributing something important to the upbringing of their children and are valued, and I think long term is better for the kids than if only one parent was giving input. When you get married, at least when I did, I felt the sum of us together was better than the separate parts. That same attitude needs to be extended to raising kids together.
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2015 22:45     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
Anonymous wrote:I agree with previous posters. Read Unexpected Legacy of Divorce - it is eye-opening and concludes that children that grow up in unhappy marriages are better off in the long-run than this whose parents divorced. I come from divorce and work in early childhood and divorces are ENORMOUSLY damaging to children. IMHO divorce is far more damaging than a bad marriage, although a bad marriage is no picnic for kids either. Best advice is to try harder - and surrender some key ground to your s/o in order to show him the way to surrendering ground. You re not losing - just paving the way and setting a good example of what kind of relationship you want to have with him. He is human and doing the best he can - and frankly - you may be wrong about some things you are fighting about. Let it go - love him - talk to him - and compromise. Your children will be MUCH MUCH better for it.


NP, and thanks for posting this. My marriage is pretty shitty right now - both adultery and addiction, both going back many years, only became apparent to me in the past few months - and if not for our child we would already be separated. I am trying to fight through this for my child, because I still feel it's what's best for him... but some days it's really, really hard for me to remember why I'm doing this. Thank you for the reminder.
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2015 22:15     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
Another thing to remember is that getting a divorce feels like it will solve so many problems when a couple is in the thick of conflict, but studies show that people do not bounce back from divorce very well, especially women, but men also. So if the children are worse off, and there's a better than even chance that you and your spouse will be worse off, what is the point?
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2015 22:12     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
I agree with previous posters. Read Unexpected Legacy of Divorce - it is eye-opening and concludes that children that grow up in unhappy marriages are better off in the long-run than this whose parents divorced. I come from divorce and work in early childhood and divorces are ENORMOUSLY damaging to children. IMHO divorce is far more damaging than a bad marriage, although a bad marriage is no picnic for kids either. Best advice is to try harder - and surrender some key ground to your s/o in order to show him the way to surrendering ground. You re not losing - just paving the way and setting a good example of what kind of relationship you want to have with him. He is human and doing the best he can - and frankly - you may be wrong about some things you are fighting about. Let it go - love him - talk to him - and compromise. Your children will be MUCH MUCH better for it.
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2015 22:04     Subject: Re:What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
That is covered in the book.
Anonymous
Post 01/02/2015 21:12     Subject: What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?
^I would like to see a study of divorced kids versus kids who are living in a house of conflict and pain though.
Egm80
Post 01/02/2015 20:32     Subject: Re:What's better for the kids - bad marriage or divorce?

Egm80 wrote:If you are interested in data and not just anecdotes, there is a book on this called "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" that followed children of divorce (and the divorcees) after 25 years. It is worth a read.



What does it say


Here is the abstract from a psychology website:
Abstract
This follow-up study of 131 children, who were 3-18 years old when their parents divorced in the early 1970s, marks the culmination of 25 years of research. The use of extensive clinical interviews allowed for exploration in great depth of their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors as they negotiated childhood, adolescence, young adulthood, and adulthood. At the 25-year follow-up, a comparison group of their peers from the same community was added. Described in rich clinical detail, the findings highlight the unexpected gulf between growing up in intact versus divorced families, and the difficulties children of divorce encounter in achieving love, sexual intimacy, and commitment to marriage and parenthood. These findings have significant implications for new clinical and educational interventions. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)